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Battle of Kosovo, 1389

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Lazar Hrebeljanovic versus Murad I: A smaller but bolder Serbian army under Lazar strikes an Ottoman army under Murad across a stake-implanted ditch. Can Murad rally his young army and win the day or will Lazar’s heavy infantry slash it to pieces? Also known as the Battle of Kossovo, Kosovo Polje and Kosovo Field. Click on images below to view PowerPoint presentation. | Legend |
 
 
It is difficult to determine which faction actually won this battle; both sides claimed victory and subsequent events only further muddled the consequences of the actual battle. If anything, both sides lost. Both commanders were killed, both sides suffered grievous casualties and neither side fought well enough to be confident of victory in the next battle. However, the Ottomans held the field – important at this time – and the Ottoman empire and army would only become greater after this battle.
 
This battle was fought rather unimaginatively by each commander although Lazar used shock tactics Serbian armies were accustomed to, namely a great cavalry charge backed by heavy infantry. Murad failed to use nomadic tactics Ottoman armies were accustomed to, namely luring the enemy into a rash attack and then ambushing them when they broke formation. Uyar & Erickson attribute this and the infancy of the units involved as the reasons for the Ottomans’ poor performance (2009: 26).
 
 
I had originally planned on animating the second Battle of Kosovo which took place in 1448 but was overcome by the vast literature on the first battle and its celebrated stature in Serbian history. It is always a welcome challenge to animate a nationalism-charged day of battlefield and be able to confidently show others how my research interprets the battle.
 
Casualties were impossible to precisely state as usual. Primary sources list casualty figures greater than the strength of the armies present and Sedlar vaguely describes bother armies being “largely annihilated” (1994: 244). It is hard to believe any medieval army could lost more than 50% of its force unless pursued by the enemy, enveloped or fighting a desperate rearguard action which provides at least a limit. Based on how the battle was decided primarily based on attrition, I reckon the Florentine chronicler Mezieres’ conviction that each side suffered equal casualties even if his raw figures are impossibly high (Heath, 1984: 88).
 
- Jonathan Webb
 
Works Consulted
 
Emmert, Thomas A. “The Battle of Kosovo: Early Reports of Victory and Defeat.” In Kosovo: Legacy of a Medieval Battle. Minneapolis, University of Minnesota, 1991.
 
Heath, Ian. Armies of the Middle Ages Vol. 2: The Ottoman Empire, Eastern Europe and the Near East, 1300-1500. Sussex: Flexprint, 1984.
 
Nicolle, David. Armies of the Ottoman Turks 1300-1774. London: Osprey, 1983.
 
Pappas, Nicholas C.J. and Lee Brigance Pappas. “The Ottoman View of the Battle of Kosovo.” In Kosovo: Legacy of a Medieval Battle. Minneapolis, University of Minnesota, 1991.
 
Sedlar, Jean W. East Central Europe in the Middle Ages, 1000-1500. Seattle: University of Washington Press, 1994.
 
Uyar, Mesut and Edward J. Erickson. A Military History of the Ottomans: From Osman to Ataturk. Santa Barbara: Praeger Security International, 2009.
 
Images

Bayezid I: http://lexicorient.com/e.o/s04-bayezid1.htm
 
Lazar Hrebeljanovic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_of_Serbia
 
Murad I: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murad_I
 
Ottoman soldiers: http://chinahistoryforum.com/lofiversion/index.php/t18570.html
 
Serbian soldiers: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=348592&page=5

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  1. 119 Comments to “Battle of Kosovo, 1389”

  2. Great battle (as always), it’s interesting to see how heavy the casualties were on each side: It seems that the Ottoman army was incapable of delivering decisive blows and using aggressive orders of battle (oblique for instance).
    I believe the Turks could have reduced losses by being more cautious in their skirmisher counter-attack, and by using elements of their second line more to outflank the enemy in a pincer movement rather than merely plug gaps. Of course these are just theories. Looking forward to the next battle anyhow.

    By Sir Beaulieu on Jun 3, 2010 at 9:13 am

  3. Well, I hope we can expect Battle of Nicopolis instead (B.of Kosovo II), its much important battle and Serbian bravery especially decisive.

    By Santa on Jun 7, 2010 at 2:06 pm

  4. first it is horrible that you dont know the fact that in that battle have fought also the albanians, not only serbs,it was a ballcanic coalition with serbs,albanians,bosnians,hungarians etc. and the name battle of kosovo is not true because in 1389 today republic of kosovo have been called Dardania, and even prince lazar new that he was going to fight in ”dardania field” that have always been populated with an albanian majority. But the result is a decisive ottoman victory and the myth of battle of kosovo that is created by serbs in 19th century is a big lie (serbs havent been the only who fight there,serbs lost the battle,serbs arent the protectors of europe because they created a big relations with ottoman empire,the protectors of the europe are albanians with the national hero Scanderbeg.)

    By dardanian on Jun 29, 2010 at 4:53 pm

  5. To clarify the context of the animation reads “Ottoman expeditions into Serbia become more regular after 1381 until Prince Lazar Hrebeljanovic of Serbia organizes a coalition of Bulgars, Bosnians, Wallachians and Albanians to defend their sovereignty” so I do mention that Albanians did fight the Ottomans in this battle. Serbia supplied by far the most troops for this Balkan coalition and is therefore credited with the title. I could’ve called the Serbian side the Serbians/Albanians/Bulgars/Bosnians/Wallachians but this is too confusing and sets a terrible precedent for many other battles with a multinational side.

    As for Scanderbeg, he will surely be featured in a future season. Which of his battles should be animated?

    By Jonathan Webb on Jul 3, 2010 at 3:35 am

  6. for Scanderbeg… yes he had about 25 battles.The most important is the battle of Ujëbardha or in english the battle of Albulena (white water ). It was a great victory of him,in fact he had only one lost battle in Berat siege,even that it was a tactical victory but a strategical lose.
    Even that thank you a lot for asking me for animating any battle of him, so if you would like to i thing the most important battle is Albulena battle fought on 2 September,1457.

    By dardanian on Jul 11, 2010 at 11:42 am

  7. For better understanding I have to explain that on Christian allies’ side (led by Lazar) were only Christians, more than 90% Serbs, Hungarians, Polish, … Also Vlatko Vukovic, a Serb from Hum, today Herzegovina in today Bosnia and Herzegovina, participated with his small army. There are so many Vukovics today, all of them are ethnic Serbs. Albanians were not Christians (like they are not today) and when Turks came to Balkan they were living in mountains of today Albania. In wider area of today Kosovo and Metohija there were living less than 100.000 inhabitants and in accordance with data from first registers after the battle there were less than 1% of Albanians. Some attempts to position Albanians as important part of Serbian army are coming from today politically motivated necessities in order to falsification the history and present wrong data as a historically based. More about the battle you can find on the next link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kosovo

    By Web Search on Jul 13, 2010 at 10:21 pm

  8. you are wrong and be sure that albanians werent muslims in 14th century and they didnt became muslims untill 16th-17th century.Also albanians were important in ballcanic coalicion army,one of them,Gjon Kastrioti told to prince Lazar not to attack ottoman army camp in the night because it would be a big lose for ballkanians and Lazar heared him and did what he say,so he didnt gave the order to attack in the night.
    Maybe you are a Serbian ,i am an Albanian and of course that we cant understand each other for this part of history,but who matters,it is good that the world is understanding the truth of this battle and of this part of history because if it isnt true we would not be independant and kosovo would not be sui genneris issue.Albanians never lived only in mountains,albanians always were in kosovo, serbs came in kosovo from ukrainian mountains in 6th-7th century and albanians have always been more than 85 % of population in Kosovo,if you dont believe look for Byzantinian and ottoman documents.

    By dardanian on Jul 14, 2010 at 4:20 pm

  9. I would like to see the facts, not common statements, and I only quote official data from official resources (registration of inhabitants). First time in history when Albaninans became majority on Kosovo and Metohija is after Wolrd War II, because during Albanians’ collaboration with Italian Fasists and German Nazis many Serbs were killed or refuged from that territory. Summary with exact data from archives you can find on next link: http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo_and_Metohia
    In 14th century Albanians were not Muslims, but were not the Christians too. There is no any official source from that period which operate with that name as part of Serbian forces.
    Maybe you want to be a part of Serbian forces, only for marketing purposes, but we can discuss only on the base of the archived data. Web based corrections are not important for history.

    By Web Search on Jul 15, 2010 at 10:02 pm

  10. are you telling me for Serbian facts of Kosovo’s demographic’s ! Those facts are not real ! If there were in a village for example 15 houses,serbian historians wrote that there are only one or two houses,if there were 500.000 albanians,they wrote that there are only 25.ooo ,those are the facts of demographic’s because those manipulations have been reported by British consul in Skopje and also by some other british,french and austrian officers that have visited Kosovo. Serbian demographic history of kosovo and ”metohia” is not real because it is political and anti albanian nation in Ballcans.
    If we were not muslims and not christians in 14th century what would we be ??? We were catholic christians.
    we dont want never to be a part of serbian forces,what a hell marketing would it be for us,you couldnt win in 1999 agains us even that you had a stronger army!We were and we are part of Albanian forces that is a part of NATO and i can make you sure that this is more ”good marketing” for us !

    By dardanian on Jul 17, 2010 at 7:37 pm

  11. @dardanian records dating from that period (1389) state that SERBS and their allies fought against ottoman empire,it doesn’t mention albanians at all.And Scanderbeg how you call it is actually Skender-beg (beg stands for nobility in serbian language) a Serbian hero.Now you try to implement ,,history” of a false people and false nation which came to balkans with ottomans,and yes,I’m talking about albanians (siptarima), which first became a ,,nation” in the end of 19. and begining of 20. centuary. It was made by Germany and Italy to stop Serbia’s rule over the adriatic coast.And all albanian theories and ,,history” was made at that period.Ilirians have nothing in common with your people,and their language is not perserved,so etymology from that period is actually made up by gues-who : Italy and Germany.

    By LKmlmfa on Jul 26, 2010 at 11:14 am

  12. da

    By dugi on Jul 28, 2010 at 12:45 pm

  13. Kenja mi se od ovih siptara. Vi bre niste nacija niste narod vi ste bre izrodi jedni needukovani. Nece proci mnogo pa ce svi videti kakva ste bagra I za sta ste samo dobri.
    Vi bre ni sada ne znate sta ste, da li ste muslimani, katolici, cigani …
    Ne bojte se nece proci dugo I sve cemo da vas lepo (pr)oteramo u jebenu Albaniju…pa se tamo jebite medjusobno kao prava stoka.

    By dugi on Jul 28, 2010 at 12:55 pm

  14. hey shkavelli, no one believe your lies ! jebemu shkavellski narod

    By dardanian on Aug 16, 2010 at 8:58 pm

  15. I believe this is not the place to listen to you, guys. Find yourself a proper nationalist forum and do your thing over there, not here because people are sick and tired of listening to your argues… The year is 2010, we do not need to listen to this! And btw. you are talking loads of sh.. sorry..weird facts. I’ve spotted one so let’s make some things clear in here: Vlatko Vukovic was not Serbian from Hum, he was a Bosnian from Hum. Bosnia was kingdom and the people from Bosnia were called Bosnians and Vukovic was Bosnian not Serbian. Leave Milosevic’s idea of Greater Serbia for SF or some mental institution and do not write that bullocks here, please. Serbians live in Serbia, Bosnians in Bosnia, Croatians in Croatia and do not tell us some stories that they are all Serbians just because they have similar last names, f*** sakes we are all Slavic people of course we will have a similar last names!
    Nice slideshow, author. Cheers all.

    By Knight on Aug 23, 2010 at 1:25 am

  16. I’m Serbian by nationality.Mr Webb has managed to catch the true spirit of the Battle of Kosovo,indeed the battle is controversial in nature,it’s hard to determine its actual outcome.There are sources telling of a great Serbian victory,many others of a great Serbian defeat.Some describe the outcome as draw.The Serbian epic poetry tells of a defeat for the Lazar’s army,but this is due to its consequences,Serbs suffered 350 years of direct ottoman rule and further 150 as a vassal nation.This event is a pivotal moment in whole Serbian history-it is present in our everyday life as it has happened last year.As for Albanians,they took part in the battle on either side;on the side of the Christians by the number not greater than few hundreds.The Croats fought also in approx.same numbers-however their contribution was significant.The public should know that Albanians don’t have the tradition of a critical history,only the tribal or nationalistic one.My answer to Knight(who’s probably Bosnian Muslim)is:in the middle age Bosnian kingdom was one of the Serbian lands.There is not such thing as Bosnian Slavs.They differed only in their religion,they had their own Bosnian church.Bosnian Muslims tend to have an identity problem:almost all of their great men declared them self as either Serbs(Selimovic,Kulenovic,Kusturica)or Croats(Musa Cazim Catic).

    By Bobby on Sep 3, 2010 at 6:25 am

  17. as we can see in the animate, this is a victory for turks. phyrric or decisive ? it seems a phyrric victory but no problem.
    turks had the field after the clash, and there was no serbs who can resist them. also turks raided further west after kosovo..

    also it is a politically victory for ottomans. because serbs accepted to give soldiers ans taxation. serb fought as mercenaries in ottoman army in 1396 then 1402 against tamerlane.

    but there is 1 thing i can’t understand. this defeat is very very important for serbian nationalism . they say vidov dan. you lost a battle then you lost your homeland against turks for 4 centuries, but you see kosova as a glory day. and celebrate it.

    By burak on Oct 28, 2010 at 2:14 am

  18. a question to bobby.

    i am a turkish. as i know croats serbs and bosnians are very close to each other. they are south slavs. (yugoslav) the most important maybe single is religion. serbs - orthodox, croat-catholics and bosnians bogomil christian then muslim. the term of bosniaks refers to bosnian muslims.

    do you say bosnians were serbs and croats who were in bosnia. they were catholic or orthodox then converted to islam. my opinion 3 nations are a little different because of history and culture. today serbs use cyril alphabet like russians .bot croats and bosniaks use latin alphabet. bosnia was under hungarian for a long time like croatia. as i know there was no significant serb population in bosnia in middle ages.. as i know todays bosniaks were catholic some of them were bogomil. when turks invade bosnia territory bogomils and some catholics converted to islam. so bosniaks are closer to croats not serbs. they are close nations because all of you are southern slavs. but different nations.

    ukranians belarussians and russians are eastern slavs but 3 different nations..

    danish, swedish and norwegian also including dutch and germans are germanic peoples but different nations.

    By burak on Oct 28, 2010 at 2:39 am

  19. Lazar Hrebeljanovic gathered first as many Serbian leaders and their retinue as he could and he also welcomed non-Serbs as well-He could’nt afford to be picky!For HE was the one that refused tribute to Murad and was involved in the two battles that preceded Kosovo that saw the Turks lose being massacred and fleeing for their lives.You better believe that HIS life more than any other Serb leader was on the line

    By blundunt on Nov 14, 2010 at 10:56 am

  20. @burak.Sorr5y, but I need to clarify this issue once an for all! Bosnia
    was a Serbian state even though it wasn’t called ‘Serbia’. The state called Serbia hadn’t existed till the 12th century ,it had been a conglomerate of small duchies, most notably Duklja, Zeta(today ,Montenegro), Raska(Rascia-today sothern Serbia), Hum, Travunia(today, Bosnia) Furthermore, the first Serbian state wqas in today’s Bosnia-granted by the Byzantine Emperor. It streched from today’s wesernt Bosnia to western Serbia. There were only three notable Slavic tribes in the Balkans: Caranthians(Slovenes), Croats and Serbs. The religious ethnic division of modern times didn’t exist then, so Serbs could be pagan, orthodox, bogumil or catholic. Croats also lived in Bosnia as a minority. I’m talking abot tribal divisions, not today’s ethnic/religious.
    As for your question, Serbs celebrate that day because they stood up to a much stronger bullyand held their own(to put it simply). Althogh, why they didn’t employ the guerrila tactics that had served them well against Byzantium and Hungary is beyond me.

    By BigAl on Nov 18, 2010 at 1:34 am

  21. I’m apologizing for my answer will be a longer one;it’s important,to finally clarify some issues.
    Burak represents common Turkish view on their military history,based in some extent on wishful thinking&national pride.On the other side,I’m trying to establish the historical truth here.The Western world highly value the objective thought(first one who used it was Homer,who depicted Trojan hero Hector being superior to his main rival Achilles,though he was a defeated enemy.I will follow this tradition.
    Let’s put aside the actual result of the battle for a while,&make clear what happened afterward.The Ottomans were opposed by the triple Serbian alliance(Lazar,Tvrtko&Vuk Brankovic).Only the whole coalition undisturbed by another great power(Hungary)had enough strength to wage war against the Turks.The Battle changed geostrategical position of Serbia,both in it’s internal&foreign affairs,&there the Serbian defeat after Kosovo is to be found.Lazar was killed during the Battle,his oldest son&heir Stefan was only 12 at the time(b.1377).Without Lazar’s authority that kept the balance in the alliance,the conflict for power emerged between Tvrtko,Vuk&Lazar’s widow Milica.She was the weakest link,fearing the two other mighty Serbian lords will take the throne from her or partition her lands between themselves.When in November of 1389 the Hungarian king Sigismund himself lead the invasion of then north Serbia,her position became unbearable.Vuk B.was proHungarian&started negotiating with Sigismund to become his vassal in rest of Serbia(his lands were not invaded by Hungarians,they lied far in the south).Backed by high noble&clerical Serbian elite who remained loyal to her(Lazar’s cult remained strong,he was the greatest Serbian hero)on the pretext that Serbia could be divided between Hungary& the Ottomans(similar situation as in 1939, when Stalin&Hitler divided Poland)she made unusual move by seeking the protection of Bayezid.The deal was made:Bayezid will guarantee her throne&borders-in return Stefan will become his vassal when he becomes mature(16 of age)supplying 1000-5000 troupes&paying 10% of Serbia’s annual silver income.The pact was furthermore justified by the fact that Serbia lies open to direct Hungarian attack,while the belt of 4 countries separates it from Turkey(2 Serbian principalities&2Bulgarian realms),&by the Serbian inability to endure long war with either Tr. or Hun.So the Serbia had to choose the camp it’ll join.In late 1390 combined Turko-Serbian forces expelled the Hungarians from north Serbia.For political reasons,the stories of Serbian Kosovo defeat were enhanced from Milica’s court,while in Vuk & Tvrtko’s best interest was the version that Serbs were the winners-that,in my view,explains the dichotomy in Serbian
    15th century texts over the outcome of the Battle.All Serb chronicles before 1431 speak of either Serbian victory or describe the outcome as draw.
    Vuk B.will be forced to accept vassal position as late as in 1392,Ottoman influence in Bosnia will appear only in 1415-so we can conclude the fact that Serbs took inferior position in their relationship with Ottomans may not be the consequence of the Kosovo Battle.
    After 1396 when north Bulgarian empire collapsed,political position of Moravian Serbia became awful;small principality between the rock& a hard place-a buffer state that was allowed to exist by much greater powers of Turkey&Hungary only to be the nation that will soften the first blow from either of them when they start the war with each other.

    By Bobby on Nov 20, 2010 at 5:04 pm

  22. As for the Battle itself,my answer to Burak will be as follows:your assertion that Turks raided further west is completely unfounded.The lands west from Kosovo field are Albania & Montenegro(Zeta),so the Turks raided the lands that were either neutral in the conflict(Zeta)or small participant(Albanians)at the same time letting their main rival(Serbs)to go unpunished?It doesn’t make sense.We must presume that some Turk warriors fought for money;a lot of wealth were in Pristina,Vuk’s capital,only 5 km east from the battlefield-we no nothing of raids there.Strange behavior for the winning side.Bayezid retreated from the battlefield as late as the next morning(even Serb historians that hold stand that Turks won the battle agree on this),no Turk soldier remained in Serbia within a week after.So even if Serbs yielded the field to Ottomans,they took control of it 48 hours after the clash-so how can the Battle be a decisive victory for Turks?Of course,all western historians know this fact,that’s the reason they describe the battle as either draw or Turkish Pyrrhic victory.
    I’ll tell you what decisive victory is. Battle of Kumanovo(23-24 october 1912),Battle of Prilep(3 november1912)&Battle of Bitola(16-19november 1912).All 3 in a row,the next one reflecting the further Serbian advance deeper in then Turkish territory.But,it’s not in Serbian tradition to boast when they are superior in numbers.We beat Turks so many times,we can’t keep exact record.
    Battles of Ivankovac(1805),Misar(1806),Deligrad(1806)all decisive victories with Serbs inferior in numbers.We beat Turks 5 times in only 1 year(1815-Valjevo,Ljubic,Palez,Pozarevac,Dublje).
    But,let’s go back to Kosovo field.In some parts of Serbia there is a folk story that depicts battle in details.
    First clash was near Samodreza Church,Serbs prevailed by beating Turkish left wing(not disputed even by Turk historians).Ottomans were pushed 1-2 kilometers towards Pristina.There,the second encounter took place.After 2 hours of bitter fighting Serbs emerged victorious once more-the second envoy goes for Bosnia,bearing the news of a Serbian victory(we know for sure that 2 messengers arrived at Tvrtko’s court,with a message of a Christian victory).During the clash near Pristina,Turkish reserve managed to outflank the Serb army,who found themselves surrounded by fresh enemy troupes.Exhausted,in unfavorable position,Serbs retreated,but lost many soldiers in the process,some,among them Lazar,were encircled&captured.Serb took once more their primary positions near Samodreza,supported by their reserve who entered the battle.Ottomans stopped pursuing,Serbs chose not to attack as well.The losses are almost even.So if that was a scenario(I admit,it is possible it didn’t happen that way,but,in my opinion it’s the most probable one,I’ve studied the Battle profoundly)who won?Militarily,it was a draw,but tactically Serbs won-the invasion is repulsed,Turks retreated,no peace treaty against Serb interest was made.
    Some Serbs who were visiting Budapest,said that they were told by the local tourist guide of a large celebration made by the Hungarian king in honor of a great Christian victory over the Ottomans, a weak after the Battle.We all agree that some Hungarian knights took part in fighting-so what they reported when they returned-what do you think?

    By Bobby on Nov 20, 2010 at 6:54 pm

  23. My answer to Burak on issues concerning Bosnia & Serb’s Kosovo myth will be as follows.
    Serbs don’t celebrate The Battle,they honor it & commemorate it.Battle of Kosovo is most important event in Serbian history for many reasons:
    1)Serbs were part of the Ottoman state for 350 years.We had nothing in common with Asian Muslims or their culture&way of living,so we look down those years as the greatest waste possible(not being able to get benefits from Renaissance,Baroque or the Enlightenment).Not to mention oppression by the invaders.So,every Serb has to know the circumstances which led to subjugation,in order to avoid it in the future.The Battle was a sharp change:freedom&prosperity before it,foreign armies(Turkish,Hungarian& later Austrian destroying the lands & the people)afterward.
    2)Shakespearean plot of the Battle.Lazar’s curse,his martyrdom(he chose the Heavenly kingdom over the Earthly one),Milos Obilic’s kamikaze action,Brankovic’s treachery(at least over exaggerated)at a crucial moment which led to a disaster,plot in the Turkish camp(murder of Yakub),doom for most soldiers in both armies,all the field covered with bodies in bizarre positions(enemies almost hugging each other while lying dead on the field),Kosovo Maiden looking for her fiance after the battle & giving relief to the wounded.
    3)Kosovo Ethics;a little bit morbid cult.So many dead heroes-Lazar,M.Obilic,M.Toplica,I.Kosancic,S.Banovic,P.Orlovic,Yug Bogdan & his 9 sons,The Music Brothers.There isn’t a single surviving hero-all who managed to stay alive are considered traitors.
    Kosovo heroes mean to Serbs the same what RAF pilots do to English,or Confederate tradition to Southern USA states.It has nothing to do with victory or defeat,but with sacrifice.I was a 3-year old when my parents taught me of 1389 legend.Every Serb is born by it,& lives by it.
    Considering Bosnia,BigAl nicely put things together,I’ll only add some data.Bogomils were sect from Bulgaria which emerged from their Orthodox circles.No one tries to claim that they weren’t Bulgarians(naturally,they spoke Bulgarian & bore B.names).Bogomilsm spread to Serbia but was suppressed by Nemanja& later found refuge in Bosnia.Some scholars assert that Bosnian Church is not a Bogomil institution,but differs from it.
    According to Burak &Knight,when a Serb from Bosnia converted to Bogomil teachings,he became Bogomil by nationality?So that means if a Turk with a name Hidayet Turkoglu converts to Catholicism,he is no more Turkish,but becomes an Anadolian Catholic by nationality?Interesting interpretation.
    But even more seducing is their view that one nation can’t have 2 or more independent states.So Genoese,Venetians,Sardinians,Sicilians,they were not Italians because they didn’t live in a one single state?Maybe the Prussians were also not Germans,but Lutheran Prussians by nationality,& had nothing in common with the citizens of Munich,who were Bavarian Catholics in sense of nationality.
    Perhaps it is different in contemporary world?Cyprus is an independent state.So the Greek speaking population consider themselves Cypriot Orthodox rather than Greeks,while the Turkish speaking one declares themselves as Cypriot Muslims who have nothing in common with Turks from Istanbul?Or maybe the Turk&Greek special agents were send to bribe Cypriots to abandon their common Cyp.identity in favor of their imperial goals as B.Muslim propaganda deceives its public that the same thing happened with Serbs & Croats in Bosnia?
    The final prove for my assertions are;
    1)King Tvrtko contested for the Serbian crown only by legal means-he was directly linked with the Nemanjic family from the female side-the fact that no one in Serbia opposed it can only mean he was Serbian & his feudal territory must have been the part of the Serbian Empire,otherwise his claim wouldn’t be logical.
    2)Stepan Vukcic Kosaca,the Grand Duke of Hercogovina bore the title Herceg of Saint Sava(St.Sava is the main Serbian Saint).His Uncle’s uncle was Vlatko Vukovic,leader of the Bosnian Army during the Battle of Kosovo-so it could only mean that they both were Orthodox Serbs,like most of their subjects.
    3)No Croat has names like Vlatko Vukovic or Pavle Radenovic-their version of the English name Paul is either Pavao or Pavel.
    No one denies Bosnian Muslims the right to have their separate national identity;but they can’t steel somebody else s history

    By Bobby on Nov 21, 2010 at 2:17 am

  24. @bobby

    dont tell me about your fantastic victories against turks. you say me common turkish military and historical wiew and national pride. but you do same thing.

    look what i said at first. it seems a pyrric victory for turks. but no matter decisive or pyrric. yes i know first serbian uprising . but we crushed it in 1813. look at cela kula. let me say in your language. CELA KULA. serbian skulls and bones pyramid. go and look at it. ivankovac 1805 1806 bla bla bla. turks ruled serbia and serbians for 4 centuries. accept it. this is a reality.

    and i know first balcan war 1912. it was a disaster for turks. but it cant change the reality of turks ruled you for 4 centuries. how many turkish words in serbian language today. there are many. from 1400s to 1800s serbia was nothing but a turkish state. BELGRADE PASHALUK…

    SORRY A VERY LATE ANSWER. i hope you see and read this.

    By burak on Jan 16, 2011 at 12:42 am

  25. do you want decisive victories bobby.
    maritza 1371 turks crushed serbs and bulgarians
    varna 1444 turks defeated hungarians and christians
    2nd kosovo turks again
    semederevo 1459. death ceremony of serbs..
    1521 siege of belgrad. decisive victoory for ottomans who were led by suleiman the magnificent. where were saint sava ?
    where were heroic serbians and pride ?

    let me repeat.from 1400s to 11800s serbia was nothing but a turkish state. BELGRADE PASHALUK…

    By burak on Jan 16, 2011 at 12:46 am

  26. Does anyone have any idea of how Stephan Dushan conducted the seige of Serres in 1345 or are there any sketches,drawings or paintings of that event or the 1352 battle between 4000 Serbian horsemen with perhaps Greek and Bulgarian support and 10,000 Ottoman Turks in support of Mathew Cantacuzenus near Demotica?

    By blundunt on Jan 29, 2011 at 10:52 pm

  27. How about facts and details about the 1344 skirmish between Serbs and Turks near the Agean sea or the 1357 ordeal of Mathew Cantacuzenus who was captured by the Serbs and held for ransom?

    By blundunt on Jan 29, 2011 at 10:56 pm

  28. I’ll try to keep my answer as short as possible,though it’s not an easy thing to achieve: Burak is very inspirational.
    1)objectivity:I’ve stated that Serbia was just a buffer state from 1396-1459,& I gave a version of the Battle which is not most favorable to either Serbian interest or pride.I could have quote Phillipe de Mezieres,King’s Tvrtko letter to the City Council of Trogir,chronicle of Ravancanin I or the letter by the famous Florentine chancellor & humanist Coluccio Salutati.If modern historians as Mr Webb find Mezieres reliable on the ground of loses,why shouldn’t he be treated in the same manner on the outcome of the Battle?The earlier the sources are, more their claims are in favor of Serbian success in the Battle.I’ve given my sincere opinion on what happened during the Battle,regardless of my personal bias & wishes. But the Turkish historians don’t behave in the same way:Nesri talks of 500 000 Christian soldiers fighting 50 thousand Turkish.The Serbian loses were around 60 000,Turkish around 12 000-so at the end of the conflict 38 000 T beat 440 000 S troupes.All Turkish h.(Ashik Zade, Uruc etc)invent the alleged death of Lazar’s son during the Battle(I’ve mentioned earlier that Lazar’s oldest son was 12 at the time),& the way in which Murad was killed.Did really Nesri said that Murad commanded his army while sitting on a flying carpet,as I’ve heard from people who red his whole text?Some Serbian h.even claim that Yakub was killed during the fighting,the plot in the Turkish camp was invented to make Battle look more like a Turkish victory than it was in reality(Turks lost 2 of their commanders,Serbs only 1,but your h.try to say the opposite thing-Lazar & his son lost their lives,only Murad was killed by a Serbian hand,& even that happened when the Battle was already over).To further illustrate what I mean,I’ll give an example:some Albanian has changed the text about the Battle on Wikipedia.He has asserted that Lazar’s daughter’s name was Marie Despina,& his son’s Etienne.In reality-their names were Olivera Despina & Stefan.Etienne(as far as I know)is a French name-no Serbian had that name ever.

    By bobby on Jan 30, 2011 at 10:02 pm

  29. 2)”Death ceremony of Serbs”
    Was the fall of Smederevo really the death of the Serbian State,& Serbian resistance to Turkish oppression?No,it wasn’t.
    As I’ve stated earlier,Serbs had 6 states in the Middle Ages.The principalities of King Marko&Dragas brothers(fell under the Turkish control as vassals in 1371,completely in 1395 after the Battle of Rovine),Rascian Serbia(fell in 1459),Bosnia (f. in 1463,a great Turkish success),Herzegovina(1482)& Zeta-Montenegro(1496-99,its last ruler was just a Tur.puppet,some hist.hence use the former year). As we can see,the last Serbian territory having its own land held on for the next 40 years.But,even that isn’t the end.
    The Serbian Despotate continue to exist in Hungarian exile.After the fall of Smederevo,many Serbian nobles as well as ordinary people fled to Hun.In 1471. the Despotate was renewed formally,with a great grandson of Vuk Brankovic as its leader(Vuk Grgurevic Brankovic-entry on Wikipedia).Vuk G.fought many battles against the Turks,most notable is The Battle of Breadfield-entry on W.(a decisive Christian victory faught in 1479 in Transilvania;he commanded the left wing,followed with at lest 900 Serbs led by a member of a famous Jaksic noble familly(Dmitar).He also lead many raids deep into Serbia & Bosnia(Sarajevo,Srebrenica,Krusevac).From Krusevac area,he brought with him as many as 50 000 Serbs in 1481.who were settled in Banat & around Timisoara.
    The Serbian D.in exile was a state in many ways.It had its own people(it is estimated that around half of the entire population of South Hungary-nowadays Vojvodina,was of Serbian origin in 1500.),its feudal possessions,its army(up to 10 000),the royal court at Kupinik(today’s Kupinovo).We can make a good comparison with the Free French gov. of Charles De Gaulle-the Serbian contribution to Anti-Ottoman campaigns of Hungary is very similar to those of Free French helping British Anti-Nazi ones.
    Serbian State in exile fought in the Battle of Mohacs,it was praised specially for its river boat units(Sajkasi-entry on W),which consisted of up to 500 boats at some times,led by the Serbian noble Petar Ovcarevic.
    After collapse of the Hun.state in 1526.briefly,an independent Srb.state emerged led by an adventurist Jovan Nenad(so called 2nd Serbian Empire which lasted for exactly a year.It managed to defeat Hungarians in the Battle of Szolos,but was subjugated after the Battle of Szodfalva-entries on W. ).
    The Serbs who were collaborating with the Turks were:Despot Stefan Berislavic in the 2nd half of its rule,& Nenad’s ex commander Radoslav Celnik as the vassal of Syrmia from 1527-30,after that he joined the Austrians(entries on W).
    Serbian D.in exile ceased to exist formally after the death of the last official despot Pavle Bakic in 1537(died fighting the Turks in the battle of Gorjan near Osijek).Bakic became famous after he successfully led Srb.army during the 1st siege of Vienna in 1529.The last mighty Serbian feudal lord opposing Turkish invasion was Stefan Stiljanovic,who was defeated in 1543.Following his death after the battle of natural causes,the last large organised Serbian force disappeared(Stiljanovic-the last Srb.”unofficial”despot-entry on W).
    Afterward the Serbs continue to fight Turks as Austrian officers(Petar Bakic,Pavle’s nephew led an unsuccessful attack on Transilvania in 1552.)
    But,thew new Serbian fighting power emerged from the beginning of the 16th century-Hajduks & Uskoks-Robin Hood alike figures(entries on W).The famous Srb.Hajduks were:
    -Starina Novak(Baba Novac,Novak The Old)- a very good entry on W.He’s a national hero of both Serbia & Romania(there is a monument in his honor-Cluj,Transilvania for his great achievements in fighting the Turks. His forces(2000 strong) participated in liberating Calugareny,Targaviste,Bucharest & Giurgiu in october of 1595.He led attack on Sofia with 700 men,capturing wast amounts of goods from the Tur.camp losing only 8 men.He liberated Plevna with his 1500 men,& in 1598.acting as a principal associate of the 1st prince of the united Romania,Michael the Brave,did the same with the cities of Florentin,Vidin & Rahovo in Bulgaria.
    Another famous hajduk fighting in Romania of Srb.origin was Deli Marko.
    -Bajo Pivljanin operated in Bay of Kotor from 1660 to his death in 1685-Battle of Vrtijeljka near Cetinje.He served under the Venice Rep.having 600 men under his command.
    -Uskoks(the ones who jumps in)-they were the Serbs & the Croats by nationality.They fought in the border areas,serving Austria as well as Venice.The most notable family is Mitrovic-Jankovic(esp.Stojan Jankovic,the greatest hero ever of the Serbs living in Croatia).In 1686.he liberated Sinj & Krbava,died the next year in Duvno(Bosnia).He participated in Candian War,& was knighted as a Cavalier of St.Marko in 1670 by Venice.
    After the Great Turkish War(1683-99)& 2 Great Srb Migrations(entry on W),many Serbs settled in Austria,in large part in the”Military Frontier”,where they enjoyed some autonomy,as long as they were fighting Turks.
    AS WE CAN SEE,AFTER 1459. THE SERBS WERE VERY,VERY MUCH ALIVE,THERE ARE FULL CONTINUITY IN SERBIAN STRUGGLE AGAINST OTTOMAN EMPIRE UNTIL 1800s.

    By bobby on Jan 31, 2011 at 3:00 am

  30. 3)St.Sava
    St.Sava died in 1235.His holy remains were put to rest at the Mileseva Monastery,until,in 1594 the Turks led by Sinan Pasha took it out & burned them on the Vracar Hill,today’s central area of Belgrade.What was the background?
    The Serbian Banat Uprising of 1594(entry on W).It started in the early spring of that year & ended in Srb. defeat in late July.It was the most massive one before 1804(according to legend 600 villages rose & point guns against the Sultan).After the siege of Esztergom was finished,Turks were able to deploy troupes against the rebels,& their territories in Banat & Backa fell(they previously managed to take regional capitals- Vrsac,Beckerek-Zrenjanin,Becej).The conflict had a Holy War character-Serbs were carrying the flags with the image of St.Sava while Sinan Pasha wore the green flag of Muhammed specially brought from Damascus to counter the Serbian flag.
    The Turks also burned the monastery of Krusedol in 1716,together with the holy relics of the whole Brankovic family,furious because of losing the Battle of Petrovaradin(a suburb of Novi Sad) fought on 6th of August 1716(a decisive Austrian-Christian victory).
    We can compare the behavior of the Turks to that of Christians.Charles V refused to set the remains of Martin Luther on fire in 1547-I WAGE WAR ON THE LIVE ENEMY,NOT ON A DEAD ONE,unquote.The Henry II of England humbled in penance at Thomas Becket tomb,feeling responsible of his death.
    The largest serving orthodox cathedral in the world is St.Sava’s, built exactly on the place of burning.

    By bobby on Jan 31, 2011 at 6:47 am

  31. 4)”Serbia was just a Turkish state for 4 centuries”
    I’ve mostly answered this assertion in my 2nd post,let’s just summarize.
    The Serbian State in Hungary existed for 70 years after the fall of Smederevo(1471-1543).
    Montenegro was under direct Ottoman rule for 200 years(from 1496-99 to 1689)when it was established as a theocracy & a tribal state,led by bishops & clan leaders-like in Scottish Highlands.
    The Serbia itself was under Austrian rule for3 times
    -from 1689-92
    -from 1718-39
    -from 1788-91
    Habsburg Serbia-entry on W.
    After the Great Turkish War,many Serbs lived in Austria,so they were not the Ottoman subjects.Those living in the”Military Frontier”enjoyed some level of autonomy-exemption from taxes during 20 years,freedom of religion,their own military units commanded by Serb officers.In 1790, 42.5% of the population in the frontier was of Serbian nationality(entry on W).
    Even during the worst years(1540 s-1680 s)some Serbs lived in the Venetian & Austrian territory.
    A large Srb.pop.was living in Transylvania,which enjoyed a vassal status under Turkey from1550 to 1690 .Catholic Serbs lived in the small Republic Of Ragusa.Some of the Ragusian pop.considered themselves to be Serbian Catholics,though majority was a separate entity.They spoke Serbian language(lingua serviana)as it was explicitly mentioned in their constitution.The Republic was a Turkish vassal from 1458,with great achievements in the field of Arts,Science & Trade(high Renaissance & Baroque culture),& was abolished by Napoleon in 1808.
    Serbians had 2 great mutinies contra Ottomans-in 1594(mentioned above),& so called”Kocina Krajina Revolt”-entry on W.It lasted from February to September of 1788.
    A LARGE FRACTION OF THE SERBIAN PEOPLE WERE UNDER TURKISH RULE FOR MUCH SHORTER TIME THAN 4 CENTURIES.

    By bobby on Jan 31, 2011 at 8:06 am

  32. 5)Decisive Turkish victories
    Maritza was the greatest Serbian military defeat ever.Srb.army was 3 times larger than Turkish.The defeat was so great,it was tried to be explained by a curse thrown by the Patriarch of Constantinople.According to the tradition,Turks attacked at dawn on the unsuspected Srb army camp-our army was convinced that Muslims don’t fight during the night due to religious reasons.The army was led by the one of the most hated Srb leaders ever-King Vukasin.He was the father of the greatest Balkan Epic Hero-Prince Marko.The fact that Serbs attacked Edirne,far away from their border,was a clear sign of the great strength of the Serbian Empire.
    2)Varna-Serbs were neutral in the conflict & didn’t want to jeopardize favorable Peace of Szeged(W entry)
    3)Serbs actually helped Turks during the 2nd B.of Kosovo,due to conflict between despot George & Hunyadi.The Turks were informed of the Hungarians moving,Serbs prevented Scanderbeg’s attempt to join them.(W.entry)
    3)thank you for giving us credit for defence of Belgrade in 1521.Serbs were only auxiliary troupes(Skoblic Brothers alongside Ovcarevic-boat units I’ve prev.mentioned).
    When Macedonia was recognized, Serbs were saying-We lost the 2nd Balkan war,when the same happened with Bosnia & Croatia-we felt we lost the WWI.
    ALL THE BATTLEFIELDS YOU’VE MENTIONED ARE OUTSIDE YOUR PRESENT BORDERS,DEAR FRIEND,EVEN MARITZA IS IN GREECE(VILLAGE OF CHERNOMEN).CONCERNING EUROPE,YOU’RE IN YOUR 1360s BORDERS.SO ALL YOUR GREAT VICTORIES(APART FROM 1453 SIEGE OF C-ple)ARE,IN REAL POLITICAL SENSE,LOST.THIS IS REALITY.ACCEPT IT.THE GLORY DAYS OF SELIM I AND SULEIMAN THE M.ARE JUST A DISTANT PAST

    By bobby on Jan 31, 2011 at 9:10 am

  33. 6)Decisive Christian victories
    In the Middle Ages,Serbs bt Turks on many occasions.Dubravnica 1381,Plocnik 1386,Bileca 1388(decisive one),Battle of Nis(1443,Serbs made a third of the Ch.army),Krusevac(1454),Siege of Belgrade(1456,a medium size Srb units defended the city aolngside the others).
    Let me mention only the greatest victories won by the Christians
    -B of Vaslui in 1475,by Moldavians-you retaliated at Valea Alba the very next year,but it was a Pyrrhic one.
    Sisak 1593(Croats,Slovens,Germans)
    -3 polish victories in the 17th century Chocim 1673,Vienna 1683,Parkany the same year.
    Austrians-Slankamen 1691-Zenta 1697(both in modern day Serbia).
    See what W says about it.Compare with what it says for Turkish victories you’ve mentioned,& if it fits with your info-you can rely on W.for Tur.defeats also

    By bobby on Jan 31, 2011 at 10:14 am

  34. bobby

    i admire your historical culture and inspiration also exaggerate.

    The Serbia itself was under Austrian rule for3 times
    -from 1689-92
    -from 1718-39
    -from 1788-91

    turks or austrians habsburgs. no matter. from 1400s yo 1800s you weren’t an independent state. we ruled you. do you accept it.

    1479 breadfield. i know it. yes a lose for turks. but what did it change ? since 1683 ottoman turks kept to rule balcan peninsula and gained more territories. in 1683 our northern borders was south of ukraine and podolia.
    900 serbs left wing ? hahahahahaha. just lol my friend.

    saint sava ?. i didn’t mean saint sava couldn’t resist in 1521 in belgrade. it was a joke .

    you are a little and unimportant nation bobby. serbs are not important in military history. some fucking local victories can’t change this reality. 1995 operation krajina . a small croat victory kicked croatian serbs out of croatia only 4 days. you lost krajina republic, half of bosnia, kosovo and finally montenegro became a state. serbija do tokija ? hahahahaha

    SERBIA DO NOKIJA :))))

    crvena zvezda was my favourite team when i was child. 1991 bari. savicevic pançev sinisa jugovic prosinecki and belodedici.

    you serbs play football and basketball. but don’t fight or struggle. because you can’t succeed it.

    By burak on Jan 31, 2011 at 6:19 pm

  35. Sisak 1593(Croats,Slovens,Germans) this is not about serbian history.

    we replied it in 1596 . in battle of haçova. turks defeated and crushed germans. do you know it ?

    is sisak 1593 about serbs.

    By burak on Jan 31, 2011 at 6:21 pm

  36. Battle of Breadfield
    Look at the article on W.In the reference section there is a list of sources-only Hung. & German hist.Why should they give Serbs the credit of participating in the victory?Maybe because of something called intellectual honesty-but the term is not easy explainable to an ordinary Turkish(I’ve mentioned prev.their lies concerning the B.of Kosovo).If you were referring to the size-if you think that 900 horsemen are small fighting force,you know nothing about Middle Ages & feudalism.The B.took place deep within Transylvania,away from densely populated Srb,areas.The whole left wing was not made only of Serbs,but was commanded by a Serbian-why else should I’ve mentioned the names of 2 Srb.commanders-your logic is failing you,Burak.
    You can’t use what ever principle suits you but,stick to a universal one. So 1479 change nothing,in 17 th century you ruled the lands all the way to south Ukraine?Your 16th c.victories are nothing(in sense of present reality) more than pictures in your history books.Wake up from your dreams,Burak,look at YOUR PRESENT BORDERS.European part of Turkey is 23 750 sq.kilometers large,the distance from Istanbul to Edirne is 230 km(by a bus 2.5 hours,by a car 2 hours).That’s the size of your European conquest,even Albania is a”power” compared to Turkey-28750 sq.km.Accepting reality is a sign of wisdom & maturity.Turkey from Istanbul to Vienna!?Turkey to EDIRNE!!!!!!!!!!!!!Shall I mention Serbia’s area is 88 350 sq km.How big your Anatolian part is,is not really a concern to Europeans,but I can see all Arabs & Persians you ruled have their independence.B.of Aqaba,Siege of Medina,B.of Mecca-just a long list of Great Turkish’’successes”-we’ve all seen the film”Lawrence of Arabia”
    It’s not an easy thing to be a Great Empire,& then turn to an ordinary country.It is a grave psychological problem,so it’s easier to live in the 17 th century than in reality.All the pride you Turks have are your military conquests in 15th & 16th c.So that’s all you ever talk about.Have you ever heard British talking how their Empire was the greatest that ever existed?I haven’t-but I’ve heard them talking of Shakespeare,Oxford,their pride of being the First Industrial Nation in the world.When the French talk of Napoleon-they don’t mention the fact that he subjugated almost whole Europe,but of him liberating The Europeans from bondages of feudalism(shall I say that Serbia abolished feudalism in 1806,as the 2nd nation ever that made it officially illegal).No,Turks are proud of building a tower from human sculls!?Is that some occult ritual of yours?Why didn’t Serbs tore it down when they liberated Nis in early January of 1878?Maybe to show other civilized nations what savages you were?Btw,it’s the only major battle before 1813 that you won-if victory is when you stop your enemy advance with double-triple more casualties.Look the article on W-if you contradict me,tell me on what ground you do that?Give me your alternative source.During the 1st Srb uprising for a whole decade-we were independent country,our army bt Turks when & where it wanted.Tell me what your hist.say about the B of Varvarin fought on 6 th of September 1810 & B.of Loznica fought on 5-6 October the same year.Up to 30 000 strong Turkish force was deployed on both occasions.It’s easy to say LOL,it’s hard to be a mature person & to know facts,my friend.

    By bobby on Feb 1, 2011 at 11:39 pm

  37. Nokia is a town & municipality in the region of Pirkanmaa-Finland.Thank you Burak,for wishing Serbia’s borders stretch that far(aren’t you tired of being outsmarted so many times so far?).
    Serbia to Tokyo is a slogan used by Srb.football funs referring to Red star’s winning of the Intercontinental Cup in Tokyo over a Chilean team Colo-Colo in 1991.
    Serbs make 37% of Bosnian pop.& control the 49% of B.territory -if that means defeat-I rest my case.
    Croatia-Krajina;when Serbia backed its pop.in Croatia during the 6th month war in 1991 we all know who won(when UN backed peace plan was implemmnted,Krajina made a 25-30 % of total area of Croatia while having only 7% of its population).By the the UN peace plan,the responsibility for Krajina UN Protected Zone was under UN.Milosevic left Kr.Serbs behind in 1994,so did also Bosn.Serbs(they were also left behind by M.,so they turned to Croats for support-gasoline & arms,but the condition was not to help K.Serbs in case of Croatian attack).Southwestern Kr.(the part that was invaded in August of 1995)had 200 000 people,while Croatia itself had 4 million Croats.175 000 Cr attacked 25 000 Srb soldiers(7;1)-I bet even Turks could win at that odds.Milosevic betrayed them in order to get UN sanctions lifted.The eastern part of Krajina(mutual border with Serbia),then Yugoslav army publicly wowed to protect against Croats.So did the heroic Croat Army attacked it-what do you think?
    Kosovo-is it a member of UN?Does the still relevant resolution of 1244 say that Kosovo is a part of the Republic of Serbia?Did anyone seen Kosovo teams taking part in any sport event or Eurovision song contest?
    Montenegro-it was a federal unit with the right of self-determination under the Constitution.The majority of the Orthodox pop.was against secession,the referendum succeeded only because of the large muslim & Albanian support(they make 20-25% of the people living in M).It is called democracy,Burak.

    By bobby on Feb 2, 2011 at 3:07 am

  38. Serbia is an unimportant nation
    From the existing 192 members of UN,although under political pressure from USA, some72 have recognized Kosovo.That means that 120 haven’t,including some of the most powerful nations in the world(Russia,China,Brazil,India).Northern Cyprus is recognized only by yourself(Turkey)-we can all see how important your country is.

    By bobby on Feb 2, 2011 at 3:22 am

  39. Serbia’s role in Military History
    After the assassination of Duke Ferdinand by a Serbian Gavrilo Princip on VIDOV DAN,Austro-Hungary imposed the war on Serbia,which led to WWI. THE FIRST ALLIED VICTORY in WWI was The Battle Of Cer(a decisive Srb.victory-fought on 16-19 August of 1914.The losses-Srb side had 16 000 killed or wounded,Austrians had 18500 killed or wounded,4500 of their soldiers were captured.(W)
    Battle of Kolubara fought from mid November to mid December of 1914.considered by many Serbs to be the most decisive victory ever won by Srb.arms:28 000 Austr.dead,120 000 wounded,76 500 captured compared to 22 000 d,92 000 w,19 000 c Serbs.After the Battle Serbia was not attacked for another 10 months.German Emperor Wilhelm I,although being an enemy,personally congratulated Vojvoda Radomir Putnik on the victory.Shall I say that Serbia had 4 million inhabitants,compared to 55 million Austrians?
    On 15 th of September 1918 Serbian army FOLLOWED by the French,won at Dobro Polje,broke the Salonika Front,forcing Bulgaria to capitulate.
    General Alfred Jodl,during the Nuremberg trial:I firmly believe that we’ve lost the war because of Yugoslav Campaign. Instead of 15 th of May,the Attack against USSR was postponed to 22 June.Those damn 6 weeks were all we need to defeat Stalin before USA entered the war.
    The 1st city that was liberated from Nazis in occupied Europe was Loznica on 31 of Aug 1941.The first German garrison in Europe surrendered on 29 Sep 1941 in G.Milanovac.The 1st liberated territory in occupied Eur.was the Republic of Uzice,a military mini state in western Serbia with 300 000 inhabitants-Wiki.
    Shall I mention Great Turkish successes during the WWI- Ardahan,Sarikamish,Koprukoy,Erzincan,Romani 1916,Magdhaba,Rafa,Gaza,Mughar Ridge,Jerusalem 1917,Megiddo 1918.
    The Ottomans should really be granted a special place in every Military Encyclopedia-it’s a unique thing to be beaten so”rarely”.
    Did Turkey really declared war on Germany at the very beginning of WWII -on February 23rd 1945,&broke relations with it even earlier-in August of 1944,when the winning side was so uncertain?

    By bobby on Feb 2, 2011 at 5:17 am

  40. battel of sisak or breadfield are not serbian battles. why are you telling about them. it is not yours.
    turkish history and military victories include 20 serbian history.
    do you know crusades. who stop the western knight ? turks.
    8 great crusade 1 is against orthodox byzantine. and western armies only won one of then. the first one. in 1101 crusade seljuk turks annihilated 3 stronger crusader army. lombards, germans, franks..if i tell you about all turkish battles and victories we will lose many times.

    yes we lost many territories. but we established very great empires like seljuk empire and ottoman empire. ottomans were one of the greates empires in history.
    tell me a great serbian era or serbian state. dusan ? in 14th century.? a local balcan state and we turks destroyed your empire . do you accept it.

    you can see an empire such ottomans only in your dream. because you are a little and unimportant nation.
    let me repeat. you were a turkish province. do you accept ? please answer this.

    By burak on Feb 2, 2011 at 8:29 pm

  41. after yugoslavia break up. you serbs had all equipments and weapons of socialist yugoslav army. you just won 1 battle agaisnt croats . vukovar. but it was a disaster for serbs. you defeated very hardly. who did you beat in vukovar ? unarmed croat civilians and militias.

    milosevic betrayed , 175 000 croat 25000 serb bla bla bla bla.
    you are always interested in details. finally croats kicked your ass and save their homeland. operation krajina was a catasthrope for serbs but you say betray, nato bla bla bla.

    you lost again in kosovo. fuck eurovision or champions league. albanians and nato defeated you and you are crying now. oohh kosovo mythic serbian homeland ooohhhhhh. bye bye kosovo bye bye krajina bye montenegro. what is the next ? sandzak or vojvodina ? :))))

    By burak on Feb 2, 2011 at 8:35 pm

  42. radomir putnik. i know him. a great serbian general and you defeated habsburgs in battle of cer. but what happened in 1915 ? tell me what happened. a combined bulgarian-german austrian army stormes all over serbia . you lost whole of your country. another legendary serbian victory :)))

    you know sarikamish. yes also do you know battle of gallipoli ? how the turks defeated anglo-french-anzac army.

    battle of kut ? do you know it. turks circled and crushed a huge british indian army in modern ira? in 1916. more than 20000 british POWs. know this battle ? let me say the commander halil pasha. brother of enver pasha. i am sure you now enver.

    you serbs didn’t win in 1918 with yourself. anglo french army saved your ass. general sarrail . accept ?

    By burak on Feb 2, 2011 at 8:40 pm

  43. and 2nd ww. yes we didn’t partipicate. nazi army destroyed serbs in only 11 days. you fought like cowards against german war machine. they captured kingdom of yugoslavia only in 11 days and minimum casualties.

    i watched underground. you know it. when german stukas bombed belgrade serbs and yugoslav army run like chickens. ustasa made a genocide against you. hungarians did the same in vojvodina. serbs were killed thousand and thousand.
    chetniks collobrated with germans. this is a shame. and you tellin victory. victory of what ? tito was a croatian . a croat saved your country .

    By burak on Feb 2, 2011 at 8:45 pm

  44. serbian democracy ? hahahahahahaha

    my friend bobby. i am really very pleased with talking to you about history. you are a man of culture. but you are flying in dreams. what is the next ? pyramids were built by serbs. mesopotomian city-states were serbs ?

    i know some croats. do you want to know what they think about serbs. they say. “serbs are alcholic, narrow minded, and rough gypsies.” this is not my opinion. they say.

    By burak on Feb 2, 2011 at 8:48 pm

  45. As we can see,Burak only repeats himself,he doesn’t show any factography-just saying lol,haha,bla,bla etc.So the discussion with him becomes pointless,and lost of time.Burak should go to youtube sites,where the people of his attitude debate.You are on the wrong forum,my friend.That’s the reason why I’m giving my last answer to him.
    About the WWII(in which the Turks courageously took part to please the winning side)when already the closest ground Ger.unit was as close as Budapest-next is to be said:
    -Netherlands capitulated in 5 days,Belgium in 18,France in 6 weeks,Greece in 17 days,Poland in 37 days.During the whole May of 1941,all 3 of the low countries & France where attacked only by Germany,& where supported by the British.France was considered to be the most powerful military force at that time.The Greeks had help of more than 60 thousands Commonwealth troupes,located on their soil.Yugoslavia was invaded by The Germans,Italians,& Hungarians-so we can see Burak,as usual, only shows his IGNORANCE.Yug managed to occupy north Albania during the campaign-its air force bombarded Sofia,Vienna,Seged etc-in the Air Gerries lost more planes than we did.Croats didn’t fight,but rebelled.B mentions the film’Underground’-in the film one can see the reception of the NAZIS in Zagreb(thousands greeting them)& in Belgrade(no one).Captain Kren(a Croat) fled few days before the war carrying plans of the disposition of the airports & planes-allowing their destruction on the 1st day.When we add the loses of all 3 invading countries-there aren’t small.You should look how many ground & men Soviets lost in 11 days-2000 planes,600 000 men killed.Ger lost only35 planes.(W).

    By bobby on Feb 5, 2011 at 1:23 pm

  46. ok friend as you wish. our discussing is becoming boring. so lets finish it.

    but one thing i want to say finally.
    serbija to nokija i said. it wasa youtube video about serbia of 90s.

    as you know serbia tokija was a term of crvena zvezda. maybe it pointed greater serbia. as i know , greater serbia include serbia montenegro kosovo whole of macedonia, bosnia and almost half of croatia also some parts of bulgaria. you wanted to establish it but you failde very badly. because you lost every battle. croatia(knin and krajina) lost, half of bosnia, lost macedonia lost kosovo lost,and finally montenegro became an independent state. now you have no border with sea..

    serbia nokija is a youtube video about it. as you know nokia phone models become smaller every year. and greater serbia becomes smaller every year. like nokia mobile phones :)))
    this is reality. i know it is difficult to accept but you lost every war.

    i think you don’t want to discuss anymore. as you wish friend. it was a pleasure. i say again . you are a very cultured and knowledge man. also it seems to me, you are an extremist nationalist.

    keep dreaming :)))

    By burak on Feb 5, 2011 at 3:03 pm

  47. ”Chetnic’s collaboration”
    Burak’s as always very well informed.I will give some important data on the issue:
    -Loznica-1st city liberated in occupied Europe,on 31 aug.1941-8 chetnics dead,12 germans d,93 captured,Krupanj-on 4 sep-9 ger kiled,B.koviljaca-6 sep 41 chetnic d,ger-9 kiled,51 captured;Sabac 22-24 sep- a large battle lost by chetnics,2000 civilians killed as a reprisal;-GMilanovac 29 sep-105 ger surrendered to Ch-1st garrison in Europe to do so;Cacak-1 october-Ch 25 d,ger 10 dead;Operation Mihailovic-4-9 dec-majors Aleksandar Misic(son of Vojvoda Z.Misic,who won the Battle of Kolubara)& Ivan Fregl captured,& shot publicly in Valjevo on 17 dec
    -1941 Major Dangic liberated 8 cities in Eastern Bosnia;in april of 1942 he’s captured & interned to Poland.He manages to escape the camp & joins Komarovski’s Warsaw’s Uprising in 1944
    1943-15 th of may-major Djurisic is captured alongside 1000 of his troupes & interned to Poland.
    21-22 aug -chetnics killed 3 germans-420 houses were burned in Stragari village as a reprisal-in response chetnics killed 24 captured Germans.
    5 october 1943 Visegrad-over 200 Germans dead-greatest Chetnic victory in the WWII-american captain Mansfield was present during the battle.
    Trebinje,Krusevac,Lazarevac-1944 were attacked and liberated.
    Everyone can see a warrant for Mihajlovic from 1943-100 000 marks in gold for his head(W).There 1000s of pictures on the internet-allied officers commanding chetnic units.
    -Operation Halyard-the largest airlift operation behind the enemy lines during WWII-512 airmen saved & evacuated from Pranjani airfield by chetnics.
    Mihajlovic(the Chetnic leader)was honured twice
    1)French Cross of War in 1943 by De Gaulle
    2)American Legion of Merit 1948 by Harry Truman

    By bobby on Feb 5, 2011 at 5:46 pm

  48. As for Krajina,I urge all of you to watch the documentary”Pad Krajine”(The fall of Krajina)on you tube-it was made by a Serbian anti war activist.You will find what the Serbs say,what Croat politicians & military do,& you can judge yourself who’s telling the truth-me or Burak.One ‘broad-minded’ Croat commented:those Serbs always exaggerate.They had only 5000 troupes,we attacked with just 50 000.So he puts ratio at 1:10 in favor of Croats.(Serbs put at 1:7)
    Kosovo:the leader of the alb.rebellion was killed only few weeks after it begun(Adem Jasari).Their uprising was almost crushed in the beginning of October 1999,when NATO issued their 1st ultimatum.Only the NATO intervention could drive Serbian forces out of Kosovo.Proof-they rebelled again in 2001 in Presevo valley in the so called Security Zone(5km wide,were Srb.army was not permitted to station troupes) expecting NATO support.When the plan failed,& their leader Captain Lesi was shot by a sniper-they simply withdrew,living their trenches behind.

    By bobby on Feb 5, 2011 at 7:36 pm

  49. Serbs
    I will not comment on alcoholism-that’s youtube terminology.
    But I will on”broad mindedness”.Ivo Andric is the only ex Yugoslav novelist who won the Nobel Prize.He was born as a Croat Catholic in Bosnia.After he turned mature of age,he started to declare himself as Serbian Catholic.He always spoke & wrote in ekavic dialect(spoken only in Serbia)& wrote his letters exclusively in cyrilic.So the one of most intelligent persons in 20th century decided that he wanted to be a Serbian-a ”narrow minded”nationality.On the other hand, the famous physicist Nikola Tesla was born as a Serb from Croatia,but he kept his identity.I’ve mentioned earlier that the best Muslim novelist from Bosnia,Mehmed-Mesa Selimovic declared himself to be of Serbian nationality.As we can see,’every one wants to be a Serbian”a narrow minded”.
    As for gypsy alikeness-I can only ask your imaginary friend one thing-why Croat women often date & marry Serbians.Ask him whom married their singer Vesna Pisarovic,their actress Lucija Serbedzija,whom does their greatest pop star Severina date,or their TV host Nikolina Pisek,or their model Miranda Vidjak.Obviously their women are fond of gypsies.
    One more thing-famous singer in the 70s presented herself to be Silvana Armenulic(her husband’s surname).Her real name was Zulha Barjaktarevic(B.Muslim).A folk singer Nada Topcagic is in fact Senada Topcagic,she also conceals her identity,even from 80s-nationalism was weak at that time,nobody cared who you were.Poet Skender Kulenovic gave his son name Vuk,a theater man Muharem Pervic named his Igor, the actor Goran Sultanovic’s father’s name was Ramiz.Emir Kusturica(the director of Underground)changed not only his nationality,but his religion also.So,many interesting & famous people wants to be a ‘Gypsy’

    By bobby on Feb 5, 2011 at 8:36 pm

  50. i said one thing ” you are always interested in details ”
    serbs were outnumbered in operatin krajina. ok. so be it.
    you crushed albanian uprsing in kosovo in 98-99 . ok so be it.

    but friend, finally serbs lost krajina knin kosovo . is it important 1:10 serbs vs croats or serbs vs superb nato technology.
    you lost againzt croats and UCK&nato. you couldn’t establish your great serbia uprising. accept it ?

    numbers or weapons are not very important for me. croats defeated you, albanians and nato defeated you.

    i don’t understand why are you talking about croat&serbian marriages or emir kusturica or ivo andric. this is a bullshit and not about what we talk. we talk military history. we arent talking about magazine-paparazzi. please don’t distortion the subject. if we will talk about military then lets go on. i don’t want to know what croat and serbian celebrities do . ok ?

    By burak on Feb 6, 2011 at 12:55 pm

  51. Tito saved Serbs
    The Uprising against the Ger took place in Srb in 1941.Do you know how Tito presented himself?Engineer Jovanovic(Croats don’t have the name Jovan-their parallel is Ivan).Maybe he just wanted to impress women(he was an ordinary metal worker)but maybe he tried to get the trust from Serbs.Until the fall of Italy(Sep 1943)up to 80%of partisans were Serbs by nationality.
    We can compare your assertion to USSR.Stalin was a Georgian-Ioseb Besarionis Jughashvilly,but presented himself to be Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin-to make it a Russian more alike.So,according to you,the poor Russians were saved by a Georgian during the WWII?!!!
    MY LAST ANSWER IS NOT YET COMLETED

    By bobby on Feb 6, 2011 at 1:07 pm

  52. You have stated-Serbs are alcoholics,narrow minded & gypsy alike-is that connected to military history?!If you start a topic,you can’t complain when you get an answer-be MATURE!

    By bobby on Feb 6, 2011 at 1:46 pm

  53. chetnik collobration. now lets see you cruel and barbar chetniks did in ww2.

    in 1943. operation sutveska and neretva. anti partisan operations did by nazis and italians. what were chetniks doing ?
    they were at german side and were fighting against partisans.
    is this a collobration or not ? answer please. they are with foreign occupiers (germans) and killing partisans (their own people and countrymen)

    as i know, chetniks fought against germans in 1941. but after 1942 chetniks turned side and didn’t fight against germans. because germans committed atroticies against serbian villagers. for 1 dead german 100 serbian, for 1 injured german killing 50 serbian . for example kragujevac massacre. is it true ?

    after 1942 chetniks fought against comminst partisans and made missiled against muslim and croat civilians. for example in sandzak and eastern bosnia chetniks killed many muslim unarmed civilians.

    look at these photos
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Meeting_between_German,_Chetniks_and_Usta%C5%A1a_commander.jpg

    German General Major Friedrich Stahl stands alongside an Ustaše officer and Chetnik commander Rade Radi? in central Bosnia, 1942.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Chetniks,_Ustasa,_and_Domobrani.jpg

    Representatives of the Chetniks, Ustaše, and Croatian Home Guard meet in Bosnia

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Chetniks_with_German_soldiers.jpg

    please tell me what you see in these photos ? i want to learn your answer. they( chetniks ustasa and german soldiers) don’t look like enemy or fighting. they look like good friends.

    who are ustasa ? croatian fascicst. they made a genocide against serbs in ww2. jasenovac, glina massacre etc etc. is it true ?

    but chetniks are together with ustasa (enemy of serbian people)

    PS: please don’t scorn my historical knowledge. ok ?

    By burak on Feb 6, 2011 at 3:49 pm

  54. are you a little squeamish and petulant bobby ?

    i didn’t tell serbs are alcoholics,narrow minded & gypsy.
    please read carefully . a croat friend told it. not my idea.
    i dont have a personal problem or hate with serbs.

    By burak on Feb 6, 2011 at 3:54 pm

  55. today i red a comment about chetnik collobration. and i put some photo links here bobby. but i think you can’t see this comment. it seems it is awaiting for moderation. wait it and read please.

    By burak on Feb 6, 2011 at 3:59 pm

  56. Burak knows the official communist history.That has been revised from 90s.Communist historians tend to lie even more than Turkish.For example,I’ve mentioned how major.A.Misic died(shot in public in Valjevo on 17 dec 41).Everyone in Valjevo county knows this fact,it’s a legend often told.In every biography of his father-Vojvoda Z.Misic before the 90s-it is said that his son Aleksandar was killed in North Africa(Tobruk)fighting alongside the British.Also,I’ve given info what happened in the village of Stragari.According to the Communist version,Chetnics burned the village themselves because they were drunk.Of course every resident knows that the village was burned by the Germans in reprisal of Colonel Kalabic’s attack when a German sergeant was killed alongside 2 Albanians in German uniforms.So they’ve changed the version into a reprisal for partisan action.PLAIN LIARS.The order was given by Politbiro that the Chetnics started to collaborate with Germans on 11 nov 1941,everything contradicting that fact must be erased or forged.
    Everyone-try entry on Google-SAVEZNICKE MISIJE U 2 SVETSKOM RATU(allied missions in WWII)-the entry will appear in Cyrillic alphabet but all the content is in Latin.At least 50 photos of allied officers with Chetnic commanders.There are some original texts in English-reports by Anglo American liaison officers.Or you can try the entry NEMACKI RATNI PLAKAT U SRBIJI 1941-1944 PICTURES FROM HISTORY(german war posters in serbia)-you’ll see some interesting info.I’ll translate only one:”on the 14th of march 3 members of the German fighting force were attacked,killed & slain like animals near Dubac in Dragacevo by Draza Mihajlovic’s bandits.As a reprisal for that cowardly act on 30 of march 150 chetnics were shot in Kraljevo & Belgrade.Among those killed are-next is a list of few names,with the date of birth & place of living”.IS THAT COLLABORATION?
    Chetnics were collaborating with the Italians in 1942-43 with full knowledge & consent of the British-so called ”accommodation policy”-they found common interest in undermining Croatia.
    During the 1944 the relations between Chetnics & Germans became somewhat controversial(before that they were clear enemies)l-1 day they had talks,the next avoiding each other,on the third shooting at each other-the whole 1944 was looking in that manner.
    Those photos you’ve posted are either forgeries,or it’s some paramilitary militia out of main chetnic command.
    You’re late Burak.The anti chetnic oriented are know accepting that they were fighting the Germans,but try to ridicule their struggle as insignificant-check Handzar Forum Sarajevo x com on google with the entry-SAVEZNICKE MISIJE KOD CETNIKA-if you have google chrome translator.They always copy the text of some procommunist Serbian historian:for example how chetnics had an agreement with Germans in area near Modrica(Bosnia)-they let them pass,but on their return attacked the Germans & killed 3 of them,capturing 6.Those 6 they put in a straight line,& killed them with a single bullet. Afterwards the Ger set Ozren mountain villages on fire.Or how they killed 1 Ger captain on the ship sailing down the Danube & wounded the ship’s cook women-THOSE ARE THE HEROIC CHETNIC ACTS-according to their critics.
    As for chetnics atrocities-one cannot condemn them,because they were just a revenge for Croatian & Muslim murdering of thousands of Serbs(village of Pridvorica in Herzegovina was completely wiped out by Muslims on 7th jan 1942,etc).
    Mustafa Mulalic was a member of the Chetnic’s command,many Muslims,Croats & Slovens were Chetnics.
    Try the entry on W-Handzar Divizija- a SS unit made of Bosnian Muslims-on the English version you can see the photo of Mohammad Amin al Husayni blessing the Bosnian SS volunteers
    together with Nazi officers.
    I will not comment the collaboration between the chetnics & ustashe-it’s a complete nonsense-except maybe their join retreat in 1945 in front of partisans.

    By bobby on Feb 7, 2011 at 5:23 pm

  57. look. maybe you think i am a communist. no i am not a communist. not even a sympathizer of communism

    you say these are communist wiev and propaganda. maybe true. but maybe you say chetnik propaganda or vojislav seselj propaganda (serbian radical party )

    didn’t chetniks figth against partisans in the battle of neretva ?

    don’t you believe the photos. chetniks and german soldiers are together in a serbian village.. do you think this is a propaganda or photoshop ? you are so funny .

    you know bleiburg massacre . a vast column of ustasa and collobratist refugees were killed by partisans. among them there were some chetniks with ustasa

    i show you photos and you still drool. photos don’t tell lie.

    ss handzar division established in 1943. mid 1943. after ustasa and chetniks. muslim population is not many and they don’t have a military tradition. how could they committed attroticies against serbs. you give an example but i am sure chetniks killed more muslims than handzar did.

    “Communist historians tend to lie even more than Turkish”

    attention with your words fucking bastard. serbian pig. go to hell with your chetnik idea and great serbia dream..

    serbs are the biggest liars. you are angels, you were always betrayed, etc. etc.

    if you said this sentence to me. i would kick your face. then we would fight.

    By burak on Feb 7, 2011 at 7:30 pm

  58. we defeated you in the battle of kosovo (1389). and you celebrate it . it is the center of aserbian nationalism.

    it is like… we celebrate first balcan war .

    i am sure , you serbs have a great inferiority complex.

    By burak on Feb 7, 2011 at 7:34 pm

  59. burak how did you defeated us with murats or bayazids dead head???Everybody knows that the battle was a draw but because of colapse of serbian empire some time before of the battle and becouse of hungarian atack on Serbia after battle turks were in better position…why turks didnt atack serbia at time od dusan the mighty???

    By crazySerb on Feb 9, 2011 at 10:04 am

  60. burak how did you defeated us with murats or jakubs
    dead head???Everybody knows that the battle was a draw but because of colapse of serbian empire some time before of the battle and becouse of hungarian atack on Serbia after battle turks were in better position…why turks didnt atack serbia at time od dusan the mighty???

    By crazySerb on Feb 9, 2011 at 10:05 am

  61. i am fed up with struggling visionary serbs..

    crazyserb.

    drawing ? look at the animation carefully. this is a turkish victory. after the battle there is no serbian troop on the battlefield.

    they ran away. how can you say this is a draw.

    murat was kiled by milos. but his older son bayezid became padisah.(sultan). also your king and many noble man was killed in serbian side.

    By burak on Feb 10, 2011 at 7:00 pm

  62. burak
    Lazar’s Serbia wasnt kingdom it was county…an small center of the fallen empire…and even that weak we defeated you in bileca and plocnik,and for battle of kosovo you cant say you won because of an animation almost 700 years later…and if it isnt problem tell to your ustasa friend that gypsis come in europe from india and that they were big numbers in turkish army…and burak my friend chetniks newer worked with germans that is like to say al kaida works with mossad…and abaut cele kula i think we had our revenge in srebrenica :) and for battle of kosovo first news of battle that arrived in europe was that serbs defeated turks and in that honor great catedral in paris ringed her bells for whole day

    By crazyserb on Feb 11, 2011 at 12:45 am

  63. crazyserb

    do you thin srebrenica was a revenge of cela kula ? dont be stupid my friend. in cela kula event turks massacres serbs. in 1995 july srebrenica serbs massacred muslim bosniaks. not turks. if you say this is revenge of cela kula, it is a bullshit. i,f you want revenge for cela kula, come to istanbul and kill turks, bosniaks are not turkish. stupid.

    serbs defeated turks in kosovo but serbia was an ottoman province for 4 centuries i won’t write a comment about it.

    and chetniks . look at the photos. also i don’t care collobrated or not.

    By burak on Feb 11, 2011 at 7:57 pm

  64. Burak
    Srebrenica wasnt revenge for cele kula but it was revenge to all of those rhat betrayed serbia…bosniaks didnt existed until turks came and converted parts of bosnian serbs to islam…Tell me 1 bosniaks dynasty?and burak my friend kosovo is important to serbs because we stood agains a much larger force,kosovo is to serbs like termopile to greeks…

    By crazyserb on Feb 16, 2011 at 7:52 pm

  65. and burak you said tito saved our country… our country was kingdom of yugoslavia and bigger part of serb were loyal to kingdom and chetniks not to partisans and comunst regime so that croat didnt saved our country he destroyed it

    By crazyserb on Feb 16, 2011 at 7:56 pm

  66. crazyserb

    “my friend kosovo is important to serbs because we stood agains a much larger force,kosovo is to serbs like termopile to greeks…” you said.

    this is true. i accept it. also you are right. this is an important battle for serbs. but please don’t tell me serbs won this battle. this is a turkish victory friend.

    we lost balcan war (1912) against bulgarians serbs and montenegrins. but it is also imporant for us. these are similar i think. or second siege of vienna in 1683. we lost against christians but it is a turning point for turks and ottoman empire.

    By burak on Feb 18, 2011 at 3:46 pm

  67. tito destroy kingdom and established a federal socialist state in the same territory. kingdom of serbs slovens and croats became kingdom of yugoslavia in 1929 then became socialist yugoslavia in 1945. i think only regime has changed. state and people are same. i mean only politic situation changed.

    is this a destroying ?

    By burak on Feb 18, 2011 at 3:49 pm

  68. also a question ..

    according to you, are bosniaks muslim serbs who converted islam during ottoman period ? or are bosniaks a different slavic nation like croats or serbs or slovens

    By burak on Feb 18, 2011 at 3:54 pm

  69. 80 percent of bosniaks are serbs of muslim religion…When serbian king and serbian dynasty is defeated is not a serbian defeat?I mean we had “our country”but that country wasnt loved neither by serbs or croats or slovenes…and i accept that kosovo is not a serbian victory but it also isnt a turkish one because you conquered serbia much time after kosovo almoust 60 years…
    And i saw one comment that albanians were the greatest numbers in serbian army in battle???squip thinks that because nato is with them that they can change history….everybody knows that kosovo will always be heart of serbia…prizren was a center of Serbian not an albanian tzardom
    And burak read abaut battle of angora Serbia was a turkish vassal and in battle one of few that didnt betray Bayazeid was despot Stefan,lazars son

    By crazyserb on Feb 20, 2011 at 6:10 pm

  70. yes i know battle of ankara. a small serbian force fought in ottoman army. and they fought bravely. but do you think why serbs fought with turks in 1402 ? where is serbia where is ankara. ankara is in the middle of anatolia (asia minor ). this is because turks defeated serbs in 1389 then turk defeated crusaders in nikopolis in 1396. then serbs became a vassal of turks. correct ?

    i am sure you know battle of nikopolis in 1396. turks led by y?ld?r?m bayezid son of murat (milos obilic killed him ) defeated a crusader army (mainly frank knights and hungarian troops )

    i didn’ t write any comment about albanians. you say kosovo is serbian but albanians say kosovo is albanian. who are right ?
    i dont know and i don’t care my friend.

    nato defeated serbs in kosovo in 1999. and now kosovo is an independent country. you lost the battle. with nato or alone . not so important. albanians defeated serbs and became a country. and serbian nationalist are still crying. it seems you will cry for kosovo for a long time.
    do you think kosovo will be part of serbia once again ?

    i don’t agree with you about bosniaks. for me bosniaks are a south slav nation. you say %80 of them muslim serbs. but friend. serbs use cyrilic alphabet. bosnians and croats use latin alphabet.

    also i am sure most of bosniaks never say ” we are muslim serbs”
    don’t mention emir kusturica . he is only one man. and bosniaks see him a traitor and liar.

    i am waiting for your answers.

    By burak on Feb 21, 2011 at 3:21 pm

  71. also
    as i remember you said to me ” ustasa friends “. if i remember wrong i apologize.

    look i am not a croatian symphatize or i dont hate serbs.
    i studied university in austria in graz. there are some sloven and croat students in the college. sometimes i talked them about history. that’s all. i dont know they are ustasa or not. but they were nationalist. and they said bosniaks are croat muslims. they were catholic and became muslim. like you say bosniaks are muslim serbs.

    By burak on Feb 21, 2011 at 3:27 pm

  72. It is correct after battle of kosovo serbia become turkish vassal because serbia was far weakened after battle and it could choose to become vassal of hungary or turkey…in that moment because of death of turkish sultan turkey looked weaker so serbia has chosen turkey…
    I am born in Pristina and i truly think that once again kosovo will be part of Serbia in truth not in near future but one day it will…you can see how people (not only serbs)today live in kosovo,life there is worse than anywere in europe because state is ruled by albanian mafia and uck terrorists…
    Abaut bosniaks: Did you watch movie knife? It is a serbian movie but if you can find it with turkish subtitles watch it belive me…you will understand situation better…Bosnian king Tvrtko and his dynasti were ortodox religion,Vlatko Vukovic were ortodox religion,every famous bosnian before turks came were ortodox,in europe in 1100’s bosnia was a serbian duchy…I lived in Kosovo for couple of years and i seen things that you cant see in cnn or bbc like when you are a child and you cant get in front of your house because you wil be dead in 15 min.

    By crazyserb on Feb 21, 2011 at 6:42 pm

  73. And for “ustasa friend” i didnt say that for you already for your croat friend that called serb gypsies or how he said

    By crazyserb on Feb 21, 2011 at 6:44 pm

  74. What abaut Mehmed Pasha-Sokolovic???He was a great man a Kalif in Ottoman empire…He build a sinagogs and ortodox churches…He build a bridge in Mostar that shoul bring peace with serbian muslims and serbian christians…he waas a “bosniak” but he didnt forgot his origin and he reastablish Pecka Patrijasija (Serbian ortodox churc)he improved turkish state and helped her to control balkan but he never forgoten his serbian ancestory and because of that he is a great man in serbian history and i belive in turkish history also…wasnt he one of first bosniaks???why bosniaks speak with serbian language when thay say that they are turks that stayed in bosnia and created bosniak nation???

    By crazyserb on Feb 21, 2011 at 6:53 pm

  75. knife. in serbian “NOJ” a novel of vuk draskovic. as i know.
    is it true ?.

    i didn’t watch it but i have heard of him.as i know it was written in 1980s. a nationalist and anti-muslim book . is it true ?

    some bosnian dynasties were orthodox as you say. i don’t know. maybe you are right. but maybe they were orthodox bosnians not orthodox serbs. i said alphabet . but you didn’t say about it.

    there is still a turkish minority in kosovo . in prizren pristine and mamusa. as i know turkish minority of kosovo were better in serbian period. albanians don’t like turks and serbs. and there are some pressures on turkish language and education. i heard that before 1999 turkish students can teach turkish.

    you will capture kosovo ?. i don’t think so my friend. you lost krajina knin , half of bosnia then kosovo and montenegro. you lost every battle. i don’t care kosovo belongs to you or albanians. let’s wait and see.

    yes. those croats said “serbs are alcholic, stupid, narrow minded gypsies”. not my idea. maybe you tihnk same things about croats and albanians.

    when i was 9 years old. i had watched some crvena zvezda games. agaisnt bayern munich and marseille.in 1991 fantastic team :)) pancev savicevic jugovic sinisa prosinecki belodedici.

    i am sure serbs suffered in kosovo. but also your army and militias made attroticies against albanian civilians. i red on wenspapers in 1999. for example racak massacre. serbs lootoed raped and tortured albanians. will you say “no. american propaganda” ?

    chetnik german colobratin in ww2. do you think it is a communist lie ? did you look at the photos i put here. (to bobby)

    By burak on Feb 21, 2011 at 7:06 pm

  76. of course i know sokolovic. do you know radovan samarcic ? a serbian historian. i red his book about sokolovic.
    sokollu mehmed pasha (soklovic) was ethnic orthodox serbian . correct. but there were also bosnians . croats also speak serbian language. serbo-croat language.

    it refers to religion. bosniaks or bosnian muslims are slav. not turks. turkish clans immigrated to bulgaria greece macedonia and kosovo. but they didn’t settle in bosnia.

    if bosniaks are muslim serbs, then serbs massacred muslim serbs in srebrenica. serbs killed serbs . how sad !!

    By burak on Feb 21, 2011 at 7:11 pm

  77. yes it is sad that one people is killing eachother but when thay say we are not serbs and we want war with serbia…than they are not anymore serbs they call themselfs bosniaks but in truth they all know that their ancestor’s name wasn’t mustafa or miralem already ilija or stefan or dusan…that is the fact that they cant hide
    yes it is filmed by a novel noz(knife) and that movie isnt abaut propaganda it is a very complex story abaut serbo–muslim-croat relations in ww2 and after the war till the fall of yugoslavia…i recomend to watch it…
    we lost all that theritories but we were alone in fight against forces that had help from nato,usa and eu…and for some time we were wining in war waht would happen if serbia was only at war with croatia? or bosnia or with albanian terrorists???srebrenica is the day that serbs gaved back something what have muslims gived them for so many year…When in one war you have so much blood it can newer be peace and i think for kosovo this is just a begining and that the faith of kosovo will be decided when nato and UN remove their troops from kosovo
    I dont have to think nothing abaut croats look the football match Dinamo zagreb-Red Star Belgrade and youll see how heroic nation are they when one little group of serbs (fans of red star)started fighting croats after they throw stones at them…by the way this football match is considered a start of civil war…

    By crazyserb on Feb 22, 2011 at 12:55 pm

  78. i know that match. crvena and dinamo zagreb. delije started the riots. didn’t they ?

    i would like to watch that film. noz (knife). can you give me a link to watch it ? (english subtitled please.)

    you say in 1995 srebrenica serbs did what muslims did in the past.
    so what about vukovar massacre ?. did serbs gave back something what have croats gived them for so many year (ustasa killings of ww2)

    let me ask again. serbs use cyliric alphabet. bosnians and croats use latin alphabet. what do you think about this ?

    By burak on Feb 22, 2011 at 5:14 pm

  79. when you answer my question about alphabet, i will ask you another important question. crazyserb

    By burak on Feb 22, 2011 at 5:17 pm

  80. Serbs use ciliric and muslim and croats latin alphabet that is true but muslims use latin alphabet because of austro-hungarian influence in time of bosnia was part of austro-hungaria…
    At match Dinamo zagreb-Red Star Heroes (Fans of red star)were provoked by a small group of bad blue boys who throw stones at them …at the video of that game you can clearly see that group which is on the upper side of terraces…One vukovar’s massacre isnt nearly enough for what croats did to serbs in ww2…in ww2 one third of serb in so-called Independent state of Croati(NDH)were killed,one third exiled and one third converted to catholism…this was the plan of Croat lider Ante Pavelic and highes church authoroty in croatia led by Alojzije Stepinac…
    Burak one question for you

    Why bosniaks speak Serbian language???(they can call thet language how ever they want but 20 years ago that language was a nothing more than a joke)

    By crazyserb on Feb 22, 2011 at 6:18 pm

  81. And for movie noz as soon as i find the link i ll sendt it to you

    By crazyserb on Feb 22, 2011 at 6:19 pm

  82. it seems vukovar massacre of 1991 is not enough ?

    how many croats must you kill to equalize ustasa genocide ? 300.000 croats or a million ?

    i know ustasa policy. 1/3 serbs killed 1/3 convert and 1/3 expelled to serbia. but it was a wish. today still there is a serbian minority in croatia. they couldn’t accomplish their goal..

    but i accept tens of thousand serbs killed in jasenovac camp. and this is a genocide of serbs.

    your question. bosnians speak serbian-croat language. serbs and croats also speak this language. if you want to speak with a croat, which language do you speak. croatian ? no. you speak serbian-croatian language. and you understand each other very clearly.
    for me croat language and serbian language are not different.

    By burak on Feb 22, 2011 at 7:51 pm

  83. if you send me link of film i will be happy and i will watch it.

    and my question. it is about bogomilism. i am sure you know it. and you know it better than me. this is my knowledge about it.

    as i know bogomilism is a heretic catholic faith. occured in balcan peninsula in middle ages. and there were a large bogomil community in bosnia. especially royal bosnians were bogomils.
    they weren’t catholic or orthodox. after turks (ottomans) conquered bosnia and hercegovina, these bogomils converted to islam. of course these convertions took a long time. after sarajevo was built many bogomils became muslim.
    and as i know,today most of bosniaks are grandsons of these bogomils. maybe some serbs and croats converted to islam. and now bosniak refers to bosnian muslim. not muslim serb or muslim croat.
    now i want you to tell me about bogomils. and what i say true or not true ?

    By burak on Feb 22, 2011 at 8:02 pm

  84. Burak
    You ask me how many croats should be killed to equalize the genocide and my answer is like ustasas in ww2…For every ours 10 of theirs…It isnt only jasenovac,it is jasenovac,gradiska and many others..
    Abaut bogomilism
    It first occured in Bulgaria but moved to serbia fastly and the main number of bogomills were serb…King Stefan Nemanja killed their leader and bourned their homes and made them to emigrate in bosnia where they were accepted…King Tvrtko called himself KIng of Serbia And bosnia…Herzegs called themselfs Hercegs of Saint Sava…bogomolism isnt heretic in catholik it in ortodox…Bogomils were firs in serbia and after that in bosnia…
    i want to say that my answer abaut croat is nazi and for you maybe not understendable but if you lived in serbia,croatia or bosnia in last 20 years you would understand…
    In ww1 we liberate them from austr-hungaria…20 years after that they kill our king in marseille…between Serbs,croats and “bosniaks”there is a lot of blood that can never be forgoten…
    burak one question for you:
    Do you realy think that in war in yugoslavia 1991-1995 Serbs were the only war criminals and that only serb killed innocent and civillians???
    And what abaut kurd problem in turkey?It looks like Turkey has the same problem with kurdish national ideas like serbia,macedonia and greece with albanian national ideas?

    By crazyserb on Feb 26, 2011 at 7:12 pm

  85. crazyserb. hi again.

    first. about bogomilism. you say most of them were serbs and had to run away bosnia. if this is true, bosniaks are mainly muslim serbs. i know different from you. and you say different. i don’t know.
    2. about civil war. i think serbs aren’t only guilty and war criminals. croats also guilty. but most of the war crimes were committed by serbs. because serbs had the weapons and equipments also many yugoslav army officers were serbs. when croats and bosnians left yugoslavia you attacked them and made ethnic cleansing. but of course croats did bad things. for example 1995 operation storm. it was a war crime against serbs.
    i don’t say croats are right and serbs are wrong. it was a battle. ok ? i asked to bobby and let me say to you. i don’t have a symphaty for croats or bosnians. or i don’t have a hate for serbs. but the biggest massacres were done by serbs. for example vukovar against croats and srebrenica, visegrad against bosniaks.

    kurdish problem ? it is very long to tell. pkk started rebellion in 1984. they wanted to create a free zone till 1995. but turkish army beat them in northern ?raq. and they couldn’t accomplish their goal. but they are still strong. but the fight between turks and pkk is about to finish. now kurdish nationalists don’t try to be independent. they generally work for cultural rights such education, kurdish tv radio etc etc.

    can you tell me briefly ottoman period in serbia. did ottoman turks committed atroticies against serbs? was there a pression on serbian people and religion ? or a serbian massacre like germans and ustasa did ? i know only cela kula . and in that event ottomans killed the rebel serbs. not unarmed civilians.

    By burak on Feb 27, 2011 at 10:22 pm

  86. ustasa killed yugoslavian king in france. but before this assasin, serbs killed a croat parliamentarian in 1928.
    don’t you know this ? :))) i am sure you know very well.

    croats wanted to be an independent country and seperate. i think they are right. they are a nation. and why did they remain in serbia (yugoslavia). every nation want to be independent.

    kurdish problem is similar.

    By burak on Feb 27, 2011 at 10:36 pm

  87. Nemanja used the following decade to deal with the Bogomil heresy that was present in his realm, as well as strengthening Eastern Orthodox Christianity. He declared the Bogomils heretics and punished them because of their religious beliefs, burning their books. He had their lands confiscated, burned some at the stake, and exiled others. By the end of his reign, Stefan Nemanja had completely rooted out the Bogomils.
    This is from the wikipedia abaut stefan nemanja…
    Burak i hope i didn offend you somehow but i never said that you hate serbs and love croats…
    Abaut a murder in the parliamen in yugoslavia 1928:
    Murderer was a serb from montenegro Punisa racic…He heald speach and said that serbs didnt spilled their blood to free muslims and croats from hungaria to now make war with them,in that momment one member of the croats villagers party said what is the price of that blood so we can pay it and newer have anything with you…Every serbian family lost a member in ww1 and Punisa Racic got greatly offended and pulls out a gun and start shooting towards a croats… Youll maybe find it interesting Punisa Racic was organisator of a rebellion agains turks in montenegro some time before balcan wars…but he wasnt succesfull…

    Croats wanted independance ok but if you have serbs in croatia which are biggest minoroty(i am talking pre-war situation)and that are 40percent of population which are afraid for their lives and they want their country like Krajina,lika,kordun and other teritories in modern croatia in which before war was serbian superioroty in numbers than you cant have peace…

    By crazyserb on Mar 1, 2011 at 12:15 am

  88. Abaut turkish rule in Serbia:
    Do you know abaut Danak u krvi?Ivo Andric wrote a book abaut it…It was a proces of taking a serbian children to turkey and made them Janissaryes…Remains of the greatest serbian holy man were burned by a turks…many serbs had to change religion to islam because if they were muslims they wouldnt pay taxes…Serbian irtodox church were many times destroyed by turks i am not sure but i think 4 or 5 thimes…You have great serb emigration from serbia because of fear of the turks to the north to hungaria and russia…It wasnt all bad under turks but it was probably a worst period in serbian history

    By crazyserb on Mar 1, 2011 at 12:30 am

  89. Burak friend some questions for you:
    If all turks from istanbul go to ankara and all serbs move to istanbull would it be right to serbs ask independence of turkey and took a Istanbull a a city that is part of turkey for more than 500 years?i ask you this because this is what happend in kosovo…
    Do you know who is Vlatko Vukovic?
    What you think abaut kurdish problem how it can be resolved?

    By crazyserb on Mar 1, 2011 at 12:36 am

  90. i don’t know vlatko vukovic . who is he ?

    did you mean drina bridge ? a novel of ivo andric. yes i know it. i haven’t red but i know what is it about. ivo andric is a bosnian croat as i know ?

    kosovo. look friend. i don’t know complete history of kosovo. you and bobby seem serbia nationalists. and i think you tel me serbian wiew about kosovo bosnia croatia and chetniks.

    i red on internet something about kosovo. it was an albanian web. and they say albanians are the oldest nation in balcan peninsula. and albanians are the grandsons of illyrians. slavs migrated balcan many years later. this is an albanian nationalst wiev. i don’t know ho first settled kosovo. but i know in 1389 kosovo was a part of serbian medieval state. and after turks conquered kosovo and serbia many serbs ran away. and maybe some muslim albanians sent to kosovo turks. also some albanians sent to mora (greece) by ottomans to control greek orthodox. you say your idea. but i can’t say serbs are right or serbs are wrong kosovo is albanian. but you lost kosovo today. you said we will take it back. i don’t know.

    kurdish problem. let’s give up it please. i said you kurdish question is very long. maybe a problem of 150 years. but the main reason is kurdish nationalism. their lands was divided into 4 countries. turkey iraq iran and syria. and these countries have kurdish question too. you know, saddam massacred iraq kurds in 1988 with poison.

    why are you interested in kurdish problem ?. do you think is it similar kosovo or bosnia problem ?

    By burak on Mar 1, 2011 at 2:52 pm

  91. i want to tell you something about ottoman rule in serbia.

    you know after 1492 europeans mainly spanish conqured the new world that is known america. most of american natives were killed or sent to exile. today most of indian tribes are lost because of genocide. all of american natives are catholic and they speak spanish or english language.

    turks ruled serbia nearly 400 years. but you are still orthodox and you still speak your mother language. some serbs or croats converted to islam. but even those people speak serbian-croatian language.

    just imagine for a while. turks didn’t conquer balcan peninsula. for example hungary invaded serbia in 1389. what would happen ? i think most of serbs were forced to be catholic and many of you would speak hungarian . do agree with me.

    craot fascist (ustasa) killed more serbian or converted more serbian in only 3 years more than turks killed or converted serbs in 400 years. is it true ? only in 3 years croats killed about 100.000 serbs.

    also i know a massacre. in 1804 turkish pashas killed some serbian royals. about 70. after this killing first serbian uprising started.

    By burak on Mar 1, 2011 at 3:01 pm

  92. Ivo Andric was born in croatian family but he said that he wasnt croat already a serb…Kurdish problem is very similar to problem of “Great Albania”…If i makke my web page and wrote all muslims in the world are serbs and all muslim world should belong to serbia would i be right?I dont think that that would happen..In vojvodina(today part of serbia)lived serbs which were ruled by a hungarians and most biggest part of the teritory is serbian ortodox…
    You cant say ustasa’s killed more serbs than the turks did,Ustase did kill many serbs but i think that that number is at least twice smaller than Serbs that were killed by turks… I am still ortodox but that is because of my ancestors that werent buyable like “bosniaks” not because of turkish goodness for serbs…After every serbian rebellion against turks the retaliaton came and in that killings is murdered many more serbs than by ustasa”s

    By crazyserb on Mar 1, 2011 at 7:26 pm

  93. turks massacred serbs croats massacred serbs, german army massacred serbs, albanian massacred serbs ……….

    it seems serbian history is a history of persecution and killings.

    is that why you say “samo sloga srbina spasava” ? :)))
    what do you think about chetniks ? do you thnk they are hero and patriot ?

    also you didn’t tell me vlatko vukovic

    By burak on Mar 1, 2011 at 8:14 pm

  94. Vlatko Vukovic was a serb from bosnia…He defeated turks in bileca and he participated in battle of kosovo under bosnian flag like serbian soldier…I just wanted to say to you he was highest in bosnian military and he was a serb,je didnt call himself a bosniak or bosnian he called himself serb…And bosnian king tvrtko called himself after destroying a serbian noble nikola altomanovic a king of bosnia and serbia…..
    I didnt say that serbs are victims but how many massacers have happend in which serbs killed turks???
    We say “samo sloga srbina spasava”because a great serbian tzardom was destroyed because of serbian nobles who took their provinces and declared independent counties and because every bad thing that happend to serbs in their history was because of that that we wrent united…
    Abaut chetniks:
    Abaut them i think only the best things…they were defenders of the serbian people in ww2…untill the end of the war thy were kings army in occupied land that were foughtin agains ocupators…There is many stories abaut chetniks colaborated with germans but also there are stories partisans collaborated with nazis…It is never proved that chetniks collaborated…Yes i think that they are heroes of our country and people….youll maybe find it interestin that grandson of Draza Mihailovic lives door next t o mine…
    What you think abaut Al kaida?are they heroes or terrorists?

    By crazyserb on Mar 2, 2011 at 7:07 pm

  95. i don’t think anything about al-kaida . i dont care them. for me amerians created them against soviets. but now they are enemy of america. i am an atheist . fanatically atheist

    you think chetnik german colobration is a lie and communist propaganda. it can be true. but i put some photos here to bobby. german soldiers and chetniks. probably you saw them. what do you think about these photos ?

    grandson of mihailovic is you neighbour ? it is possible not interesting. do you live in belgrad ?

    if i am not wrong you said you are from kosovo ?. where ? mitrovica ? and what were yu doing in 1999 (nato invades )

    did you migrate from kosovo ?

    By burak on Mar 2, 2011 at 7:45 pm

  96. I m refuge from kosovo i live in serbia but not in belgrade allready in kraguj. nou not from mitrovica i am from pristina…i was a child in 1999…That picture could be made by anyone after the war or at time of the war and use it as propaganda against chetniks…
    where are you from?
    Serbian history isn only abaut kilings we had many god scientists that changed the world and how many of them did turkey had???Are you turk?
    You are telling to me that turks didnt kill but whad did turks did with armenians?

    By crazyserb on Mar 2, 2011 at 8:57 pm

  97. You wrote serbs did the most war crimes in civil war but the official numbers are that serb did less than one third of war crimes

    By crazyserb on Mar 2, 2011 at 8:58 pm

  98. if a new battle starts in kosovo, i think you will taje your armes and be recruited a chetnik. young chetnik crazyserb . new model chetnik :)) you are so vengeful for albanians i think.

    i know only one serbian scientist. nikola tesla. he was from croatia and pure genious. i admire him. who are the rest ?

    do you want to know the important turkish scientist ? or do you want to scorn turks ? iw you scorn us, you are wrong. and don’t do that. turk are more important than serbs in history.

    of course we have a lot of novelist scientist art. for example mimar sinan (sinan the arthitech) he built mostar bridge and croat scums destroyed it.

    piri reis. a great admiral and geographer. he draw a true world map in 1513. and a lot of man. turkish history isn’t about only invading fighting or killing orthodox

    we are talking for a long time and asking me am i turk ?
    yes . in fact my father is turkish my mother is german from hamburg. but i declare myself as a turk not a german. also i can speak german as i can speak turkish. better than english. i live in edirne. you know edirne of course. old capital of ottomans. after 1453 istanbul became capital.

    By burak on Mar 2, 2011 at 9:23 pm

  99. armenians. ? they rebelled against ottoman in 1915 to be free.

    but they lost everything. they lost their lives, their homeland, their goods and women. now there are only 30.000 armenian in modern turkey. before 1915 they were about 1,5 million.

    yes we did a bad thing to armenians. like you wanted to do bosniaks croats and albanians. and if europe didn’t stop you, i am sure your chetniks would kill every croat and albanian or muslims.

    you aren’t more innocent than us. also i never said turks didn’t kil serbs. when did i say this ? we ruled you for 400 years. if turks killed 1 serbian everyday in 400 years it is a big number. i think you are right. turks could kill more serbs than croats. but be brave, fight and don’t make your people be killed. you ran away from the kosovo field. if you fought better maybe we couldn’t kill you. :))

    1/3 ?. my friend please be honest. i accept serbs are not only guilty but you have done most of the massacres. you attacked croats and bosniaks. official numbers of whom ? slobodan milosevic’s official numbers ?

    i thought that you are a moderate man about nationalism. but now i think you are a pure serbian nationalist like bobby. maybe you are right. maybe you lived bad things. and maybe you lost some people from your family against albanians. i don’t know.

    By burak on Mar 2, 2011 at 9:34 pm

  100. That number i heard in hague and were told by some attorney as official…in trial of Vojislav Seselj..
    In war serbs killed bosniaks and croats…croats killed serbs and bosnians…bosnian killed croats and serbs…whey you say it we atacked croats and bosnians it looks like serb fought an alliance of croats and bosniaks and that is surely not true…
    Edirne-beautifull city and the oldest turkish capital (If i am not mistaking)…
    I am not a “Pure serbian nationalist” but i am proud of my nation and i would surely defend it in every war…I didnt say turks were more guilty than us,i just wanted to say that every nation has some bloody massacres in their military history….Did you hear abaut yesterday happenings in germany i think frankfurt but i m not shure a 21 year old man of albanian nationality who is from mitrovica killed 2 and wounded 2 american soldiers…what do you think of this event?
    USA gived them “liberty”and 10 y. later they kil them in terrorist atacks… I lost a sister which was 1 year older than me she had 6 years and i had 5

    By crazyserb on Mar 3, 2011 at 9:55 am

  101. vojislav seelj . i know him. i think president of serbian radical party. and he is extreme nationalist.

    of course you are not only guilty. croats and serbs killed each other also they killed muslims. but did bosnians made massacre ? i dont know and i dont think so. because they didn’t have an army in the beginning. also they had a shortage of weapon. they couldn’t defend themselves against you. also serbs are a warrior nation. but bosniaks not.

    yes i heart that event. an albanian killed 2 americans. but i dont know if he is a kosovo albanian and uck member. maybe he killed them because of another thing. is he an uck militia ?

    edirne is a very good city. you are right the old capital. i was born in turkey and i live in turkey . that’s why i say i am turkish. maybe if i was born in germany and lived in hamburg i would say i am german not turk. father turkish, mother german. yes but it is not about it. it is about where i was born and live.

    i am so sorry for your sister. really. i can understand it must be painfull and difficult. would you like to tell me how did she die ? did uck kill her? if you don’t want to tell, don’t tell. and i will never ask again.
    so are you about 19 years old ?.
    and what is your name ?

    By burak on Mar 3, 2011 at 2:52 pm

  102. It is a youn albanian from mitrovica…i am 18…i don want to say my name…My sister was shoot in front of my house while she was playing as retaliation for some leader ov uck that was killed few days before that by my uncle in fight somewhare near pristina….do you know abaut serbian rebellion in herzegovina?

    By crazyserb on Mar 3, 2011 at 9:05 pm

  103. a kosovo albanian kills 2 american soldiers. very interesting. i have no idea. you know it better than me. why do you think he attacked americans in germany ?

    ont want to say your name ? will you be an important person in the future ? . so be it. i will not ask again.

    i know a serbian rebellion. it is in 1875. did you mean this event ?
    but i don’t know exactly what happened in 1875. as i know ottomans crushed the serbian rebels ruthlessly.

    By burak on Mar 4, 2011 at 2:50 pm

  104. The Battle of Kosovo is a key event with implications that reach all the way to today.

    I found this while doing a research project on the first battle.

    I’m amazed to see the comments here, well not really.

    I was a peace keeper in the Balkans for a year……same nonsense. lots of arguing over who was a Serb or a Bosniak or Albanian or Croat or Muslim. Who started it, why they started it……………

    and on and on and on……………..for a year.

    Even today, there is no progress in the region. Mostly because sitting around pointing the finger at someone else, questioning their “real” ethnicity and generally blaming them for your problems is far, far easier than actually growing up and solving the problems.

    By Robert on Jun 10, 2011 at 12:48 am

  105. Just would like to say to all of you and albanians,The battle of kosovo was mixed people from albanians,serbs,bulgarian and so on,The main role albanians did was to protect the old albanians cathlioc churches that was converted to orthodox,,This is fact i suggest you all read the ottoman documents,Yes kosova was in medievil yugo,BUT only because the fact that bulgarian empire pushed yugo downwards into kosova,Kosova was nothing but a battle feild for serbians,you see serbians have names for these states in kosova but in the ancient names we have all the names and meanings, in our language and srbians dont,I belive half of you serbs are of albanian origion anyway just take a good look at yourselfs well most of use,no shit just look at genetics and it tells you,I dont have time for serbs but i dont deny what i can see,

    By ukaj on Jul 12, 2011 at 2:06 pm

  106. It is vary disturbing how Albanians from Kosovo are trying to manipulate history to suit their political goals. Its is not only offense to common sence and logic it is abuse of history and manipulation not to mention ethical misuse and pseudo-history.

    1. There is no mention of Albanian nobility or their armies in Kosovo battle of 1389. In fact Albanians were Turkish allies up until Skenderbeg.

    2. There was no catholic churches who were “converted” to Orthodox if it was archaeological evidence would prove that since they have different architecture model in fact only Catholic churches in that part of Serbia can be found in Novo Brdo, and those were churches built for German miners and Slavs from Dubrovnik.

    3. There is only one written record of any Albanian on the territory of Kosovo during first half of 15 century. Some dept in Dubrovnik annals.If you look at the material archaeological evidence from 9 to 15(graves, structures, jewelry, weapons etc)century you will notice that it is the same as the rest of Medieval Serbia. Written scripture is Glagiolic or Cyrillic no Latin or Greek just Slav scripture. Serbs were majority on Kosovo up until 1870(Turkish sources).

    4. Albanians invented their “Kosovo” in 20th century during Zogu and Enver era trying to boast their national pride and so they can claim Kosovo witch was part of Serbia\Yug then but had majority of Albanian population from 1912 onward .This fabrications have no solid ground but many Albanian lobbyists and some dubious writers are trying to pollute mainstream culture with “evidence”that Kosovo was Albanian since Middle ages which is ridiculous.

    It is certainly not Albanian fault that they are thinking the way they do. They read only pseudo historians what write what they want to hear and that is that their nation is THE BEST, but all immature and insecure nation have that period it will pass(as a German I guarantee ). No one here is a serious historian let alone medievalist to understand that history ca not be interpret by today world political ethnic economical situation. People seem to forget they were often. That in medieval times there was no NATION or nationality. And that history as history should be seen without modern cloud or bias or romantic interpretation.

    To all Albanians who are insecure or cant escape economic problems or their having identity problems I say don’t rape history. It will not solve your problems. It didn’t save Germany, Japan or Serbia for that matter don’t make the same mistake. Clear your eyes and read real history not some nationalist brainwashing garbage pseudo history.

    By Yung on Jul 29, 2011 at 10:26 am

  107. Good day! I know this is kinda off topic but I’d figured I’d ask. Would you be interested in trading links or maybe guest authoring a blog article or vice-versa? My website covers a lot of the same topics as yours and I believe we could greatly benefit from each other. If you might be interested feel free to send me an e-mail. I look forward to hearing from you! Excellent blog by the way!

    By Best Weapons of the Military on Dec 3, 2011 at 11:42 am

  108. Best Weapons of the Military: send me an e-mail at jonwebb4290@hotmail.com. I was unable to contact you by the e-mail attached to your comment.

    By Jonathan Webb on Jan 13, 2012 at 9:47 pm

  109. …. How do you explain that today’s Albanian are majority Muslim population, and Serbs are mostly Christians, if they are Albanians defending Christian Europe,how do you explain that even the Turkish sources do not mention the Albanians as their opponents in the Balkans, but mainly Serbs,how do you explain Lazar as a leader of resistance against the Turks, with so many powerful Albanian, how do you explain Skopje as the capital of the serbian empire if the Kosovo Albanians belonged, how do you explain Jugovice, Baoši?e, Hrebeljanovice and Obilica and many other warriors, and that Albanian names are nowhere. You stole the land of the Serbian people, our Kosovo, but you can not history, facts and evidence speak for itself, a hoax that I have read here throw in the bin cart.

    By zoks on Jan 29, 2012 at 9:57 pm

  110. I would just like to add something for you all..All i see in this lobby is pure propaganda,,1 i see serbians saying serbian tribes were around bosnia herzgovinia,,Let me tell you something about that,,There were no serbian tribes in that reigion at all,There is no assimulated serbians at all that are albanians,I know what you are talking about because i hail from 1 of these tribes and i am 100% cathlioc and my features and nearly all features of cathloc albanians are seperate to serbians,lower albanians and any slavnic nations.In battle of kosova there were albanians cathlioc fighting with serbians against the ottomans,When albanians and serbians were defeated alot of albanians were restrained and punished and held as prisoners,They rebellied every few days and so did some serbians,,But alot of serbians payed tributes to the ottomans so they could keep there religion,,About serbian tribes,The tribes you are thinking about has no meaning in your language 1 little bit and there is no info about them,,krasniqi you say is serbian and the hoti tribes,,I hail from kraq keqi and our tribe have always been albanians me came down from herzgovinia highlands beacuse slavs were moving into this area,,Again i dont look anything like serbs,or sourth albanians nor croatians and bosnians,,we look very much diffrent to you all,Why because we didnt mix with other tribes we only mix from our own tribe ANd still do..,You claim albanians tribes to be serbians to gain land.I ask you when in history were serbians cathliocs,NEVER,,My tribe knows of the 2 other assimulated albanians who belive they are serbs we have fought them for centurys all you have to do is look at them and you will see they are not serbian,They converted to orthodox,And my whole intire tribe is cathlioc until, late 1700s to 1800s.some turned muslim,I also suggest you serbs and whop ever take a look where kosova is and serbians land when the bulgarian empire was in full force,,serbia was above kosova wasnt in it,,stop propaganda serbs because all you have to is go read the ottomon jurnals and ottoman documets about the albanians,,

    By albanian.. on Feb 15, 2012 at 9:52 am

  111. And my tribe you say krasniqi,,LOL in what time did krasniqi become serbian,,,Dont dare insult me or my tribe to be serbian because we are all from cathlioc tribes,,We all lived away from serbs and ottomans that is why we look diffrent to you all..By the way do use all know what empires do?They ravish steal,destroy and conqer,this is why serbisna claim land because there empire pushed through into others lands. And because of that they say the places the conqered are there land,,Now i suggest you all to go read some history of the people who declared war agist our people.

    By albanian.. on Feb 15, 2012 at 10:14 am

  112. If one of the opponent is fleeing from the battlefield, it means that the other one win the war. I didn’t understand why you did mention on the text as ” The Ottomans could not properly exploit the battlefield victory”. Is there something new that we don’t know about historical paradigm. Please inform us…

    By demirhisar on Feb 18, 2012 at 4:38 pm

  113. crazy euro fantasies and wet dreams of beating massive turkish armies when its a fact that the whole of europe used to come together to fight the turks

    laughable indeed … the Turks were usually outnumbered in most of these battles … just a bunch of european hate and propoganda against the unstoppable Turkish conquests … the only victory they truly had was at Vienna, and that was because the Turks couldn’t get their big guns to the battle field …

    By Ghazi on Feb 22, 2012 at 5:05 am

  114. All of europe did not come to fight the truks, that is an exageration. Yes, some european state did allied themselves on occasions to repel turkish attacks, like the siege of vienna (the first one) or the battle of Lepanto. But all of europe implies european unity, which is laughable at best, for the times. And don’t forget Lepanto, a tactical victory as well.

    By Ben on Mar 1, 2012 at 3:56 am

  115. and I forgot Nicopolis to my little list, I apologize for this.

    By Ben on Mar 1, 2012 at 3:58 am

  116. demirhisar:

    A couple of things happened after the battle, most importantly, since Murad was killed Bayezid returned to his capital to kill his brother and assume power to secure his place as the next Sultan, so while the Ottomans won the battle, they immediately withdrew from the area for internal political reasons and were not able to reep any of the benefits of the victory until some time later.
    Bayezid did wind up taking Lazars daughter as his wife as a consequence of the battle, however both wound up as prisoners of Timur and remained so the rest of their lives (as far anyone knows).

    By Dennis on Mar 6, 2012 at 2:46 pm

  117. Kosovo is the principal part of the Republic of Serbia! !!
    I am not Serb, I am ethnic German, but I think so!!!

    By John on Mar 30, 2012 at 8:15 pm

  118. as we can see, the battle of Kosovo has not ended yet. it’s going to be interesting to see when it’s going to end so that locals can star dealing with and take up the battles and wars that came after.

    By uncle on May 13, 2012 at 4:35 pm

  119. Thanks for any other magnificent article. The place else could anyone get that type of information in such a perfect manner of writing? I have a presentation next week, and I’m on the look for such information.

    By organics products on Aug 6, 2012 at 5:33 am

  120. Heya i’m for the primary time here. I came across this board and I find It truly helpful & it helped me out a lot. I hope to give one thing again and aid others like you helped me.

    By Cisco Interfaces on Nov 5, 2012 at 4:56 pm

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